Ford's Lightning; How they ruined a great product.

[Jim Lewis]

I agree that 21st-century vehicle purchases are slowly evolving from an antiquated system that has historically made it illegal to purchase a vehicle directly from the OEM in 48 states. Also, Ford has required dealers to make a big investment in upgrading their facilities and getting service techs trained and qualified on their EVs. I don't have a good feeling about what % of the vehicle sale cost should go to the dealer to support capital and training costs, but I doubt the dealer is going to recover those investments any time soon just from a surcharge on servicing the relatively few EVs it's going to be able to sell in the next few years.

The Ford dealer I'll be going to is part of a big corporate conglomerate of car dealerships in San Antonio built by Red McCombs. When I used to take our Camrys to Red McCombs Toyota, I always felt they were out to sell me service I didn't need. Gunn Honda (an unrelated business) has restored my faith that there are dealers in business to make money and keep customers long-term by only selling them what they need and want.

So far, the Red McCombs Ford has done a great job. They've been in touch with me through the reservation and order process, answered numerous questions about the vehicle, notified me immediately about the 2/4 production halt, and offered to sell me a Lightning on their lot (I didn't ask about markup, as I nixed that idea straight away - I don't qualify for a tax rebate and want a specific configuration). I've been invited to come by to test drive the Lightnings and learn the controls with no apparent limit on how much time I could spend doing that. And I was concerned about water in the tailgate and asked them to inspect my truck's tailgate seal when it's delivered (probably a stupid idea on my part), and they said no problema. I told them I didn't want the truck fully charged for delivery, and they agreed. They offered to let me detail the truck myself if I wanted (I want to put my own wax on it - ceramic coating's a little too pricey for me) and deliver it to my door for free. So, I don't know if they've given me $9K worth of service, but they've quickly and very politely handled a lot of fuss from me.

As others in this thread have pointed out, dealerships are like human beings with the good, bad, and indifferent. YMMV, but so far, I'm happy with the dealer I've gone with, who is only about 4 miles from my house. Given all the various things that can go wrong, I'm glad to have a close-by place that can do ~whatever's needed for the life of the vehicle. The tales on the forum about how long it takes to get needed service are scary. But since Red McCombs is a very big Ford dealership in Texas, perhaps they'll be much better than average. Just having lots of other Ford dealerships around the country to turn to if I break down while traveling is reassuring, too. As in concierge medicine, sometimes you pay a fee for potential service and availability; you hope you never really need all that much, but you feel better knowing it's available whenever you want.

Hope I don't sound too Pollyanna-positive for the OP. I'm going to be optimistic about my Ford dealer until they prove me wrong. Starting out with negativity seems like a way to make things go much further south fast.

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[metroshot]

...... the relationship you are referencing is with the service department. The sales department, and the ordering process, has no involvement with the service department. The service department did not get any real cut of that 10% "Ordering and Delivery fee".
.....

Wrong, the service dept was paid to do a PDI before delivery.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

Wrong, the service dept was paid to do a PDI before delivery.

I stand corrected, thank you, I thought that was the sales departments responsibility (as my dealer seemed to infer).

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

Interesting topic.

I've often wondered if Ford didn't start out wanting to use the Lightning to kill electric trucks. (How else can you account for those milky DRLs?) I think they thought the low range would do it. Then at some point they realized they actually had to make a go of it. So it is a half-scuttled business.

The Pro at $40K was a mistake. It's just way too nice. For $40K it needed to be 2 door, RWD, bench seats, with an AM radio. But that would've taken more engineering.

So anyway way too nice and to compound the mistake they actually tried to make the silly thing! Given the mistake they should've just said that'll be out in 2024 and just built the Platinums then the Lariats. Some people would be unhappy, but not as unhappy as they are currently. And if $40K was doable in 2024 the Pro would be undercutting and stealing the thunder of the Ram EV and Cybertruck perfectly as they would be starting with their pricey trims.

On dealerships - not everyone is willing to buy a $75K car sight-unseen. Even Tesla has "stores". Will dealerships evolve into stores + delivery centers + service departments? [Isn't that kind of what they are?] I think their business model will have to evolve as EVs need less service and to your point less sales. Ultimately this could mean less percentage per car, but the Lightning is one of the leaders of this transition, which will take a long time. Can't expect it to be all done right out of the gate. It's part of the price of being an early adopter.

Hey, your feedback is probably helping to shape the future!

Great take on the Pro!

It seems Ford decided to take the F-150 platform shortcut and make every trim available. If they had just released the Lariat and Platinum initially, there would've been a lot less upset (potential) customers. I'm happy they didn't, but I fully know I'm one of the few that got lucky.

Again, my gripes and opinions have nothing to do with the actual vehicle. I love my truck.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

I agree that 21st-century vehicle purchases are slowly evolving from an antiquated system that has historically made it illegal to purchase a vehicle directly from the OEM in 48 states. Also, Ford has required dealers to make a big investment in upgrading their facilities and getting service techs trained and qualified on their EVs. I don't have a good feeling about what % of the vehicle sale cost should go to the dealer to support capital and training costs, but I doubt the dealer is going to recover those investments any time soon just from a surcharge on servicing the relatively few EVs it's going to be able to sell in the next few years.

The Ford dealer I'll be going to is part of a big corporate conglomerate of car dealerships in San Antonio built by Red McCombs. When I used to take our Camrys to Red McCombs Toyota, I always felt they were out to sell me service I didn't need. Gunn Honda (an unrelated business) has restored my faith that there are dealers in business to make money and keep customers long-term by only selling them what they need and want.

So far, the Red McCombs Ford has done a great job. They've been in touch with me through the reservation and order process, answered numerous questions about the vehicle, notified me immediately about the 2/4 production halt, and offered to sell me a Lightning on their lot (I didn't ask about markup, as I nixed that idea straight away - I don't qualify for a tax rebate and want a specific configuration). I've been invited to come by to test drive the Lightnings and learn the controls with no apparent limit on how much time I could spend doing that. And I was concerned about water in the tailgate and asked them to inspect my truck's tailgate seal when it's delivered (probably a stupid idea on my part), and they said no problema. I told them I didn't want the truck fully charged for delivery, and they agreed. They offered to let me detail the truck myself if I wanted (I want to put my own wax on it - ceramic coating's a little too pricey for me) and deliver it to my door for free. So, I don't know if they've given me $9K worth of service, but they've quickly and very politely handled a lot of fuss from me.

As others in this thread have pointed out, dealerships are like human beings with the good, bad, and indifferent. YMMV, but so far, I'm happy with the dealer I've gone with, who is only about 4 miles from my house. Given all the various things that can go wrong, I'm glad to have a close-by place that can do ~whatever's needed for the life of the vehicle. The tales on the forum about how long it takes to get needed service are scary. But since Red McCombs is a very big Ford dealership in Texas, perhaps they'll be much better than average. Just having lots of other Ford dealerships around the country to turn to if I break down while traveling is reassuring, too. As in concierge medicine, sometimes you pay a fee for potential service and availability; you hope you never really need all that much, but you feel better knowing it's available whenever you want.

Hope I don't sound too Pollyanna-positive for the OP. I'm going to be optimistic about my Ford dealer until they prove me wrong. Starting out with negativity seems like a way to make things go much further south fast.

Good take and I agree with almost all your points.

This thread has diverged into dealer slandering. That really wasn't my original intent. My intent was to point out that the issue with Ford's new F-150 Lightning has nothing to do with the truck itself. Just that Ford needs to reconsider its business stance up at the top of the management chain for the questionable decisions they've made to have such an amazing product, that still manages to lose money. This ultimately means us consumers are paying (price increases) for their mismanagement. They can blame it all they want on supply chain, market issues, commodity prices. Other EV manufacturers deal with the same issues. Those manufacturers are profitable without these, multiple, substantial price increases.

 

[Regular150]

Oh Benny, you would not have lasted a week with the first MachE, or the Bronco purchase process. Our First Edition MachE we literally learned as we went with the brand new Reservation/Ordering System. I knew more about the process than the Dealer as it was our only Ford Model we had to worry about. The dealer had far too many Ford Models they could actually sell and were available to make money on necessary to keep their doors open during the pandemic.

Through Forums like this one and Ford corporate information we educated Mullinax Ford all the way from Reservation transfer from another dealer and Ford Options at the time of the purchase. It would be easy to talk bad about all the things you mentioned but it was obvious all involved were learning and respectful of each other through the entire process.

Was it easy, was it glitch free, was it painless, not at all. Was it worth it, you bet.

So 2 MachE's, 2 Four Door Bronco's, and a ER Lariat Lighting were all worth it.
The thing I can attest to, is each subsequent transaction has improved immensely.

Now if we get our Hybrid Maverick before year 3 I'll be super excited, but if we don't because Lariat and Tremors make more money, that's fine, I don't own the company and can walk if I want. Good luck Benny!

 

[Replika]

They lost me with the B&O noise issue: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/dangerous-b-o-sound-system-issue.9254/

Absolute dealbreaker. I sold the truck last month. Despite the NHTSA complaints continuing to trickle in, a Ford engineer told me “it’s not a known issue” and “who cares, the truck is awesome!”

In my three months of ownership I could not get a rattle in the door fixed despite letting the dealer know prior to purchase, and leaving it at the shop (without loaner) for two weeks. Should also mention two prior service appointments that I bailed on after they wanted to hold the truck for a week before even looking at it.

There were a lot of positives about the truck too, which made getting rid of it a bummer. I drove 6,000 miles in that time, camped in it, hauled all sorts of stuff, and had it power my house during an outage. I will get around to writing a review at some point.

 

[COrocket]

One thing to note is that even with direct to consumer companies like Tesla or Rivian, a certain amount of money is baked into the price of each vehicle which allows Tesla to invest in and expand their brick and mortar presence to the size of a traditional car dealership, at least in my area.

In the past six years myself and my other family members have owned three Teslas that have been driven about 140,000 miles cumulatively, and so far Tesla has collected a grand total of around $200 for out of warranty vehicle servicing for all three vehicles. So it’s apparent that after sales service isn’t what is keeping the Tesla service center afloat financially. And this is to be expected, EVs already have a major maintenance cost advantage over ICE vehicles, which will only grow as EV designs become more refined and reliable. But it points out that as EVs displace ICE market share, service will be a smaller slice of the revenue pie for companies/dealers.

Am I in favor of direct to consumer sales with online ordering/paperwork/delivery? Absolutely, I think the advantages far outweigh the drawbacks. And I do think that it would cut down on some of the cost inefficiencies found in the franchise dealership model and allow Ford to run a lot leaner if they controlled the final transactions. But regardless who owns the building, there’s still costs associated with running a physical dealership/service/delivery center, so even if FoMoCo didn’t have to pay a 10% margin to dealers, they would still incur costs doing it themselves. Im not defending dealers, but cutting out 10% dealer margins doesn’t mean Ford could magically reduce their vehicle prices by 10% and still maintain the same vehicle margins and service footprint. It would still help, and I imagine it would have to be part of a multi pronged approach to Ford becoming a more efficient company overall and being able to compete in the future EV market.

 

[rdr854]

It was reported, multiple sources, that FoMoCo loses roughly $750 on each EV sale. Ford ranks at the bottom, which is why I claim they are grossly mismanaged at the top. It's not the engineers, manufacturers, or 99% of the employees.

(Here is one source after a 10 second Google search: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-teslas-unrivaled-profit-margins/)

That loss per vehicle isn't completely tied to dealers, it's a larger indication of the company's mismanagement which was what my original post was about. It delved into the dealer issues I mentioned.

Dealer's sales departments are not "selling" these trucks. They are delivering them to customers who ordered them, often with little dealer help.

The few new vehicles they get on their lot due to FoMoCo sending dealer stock, or canceled orders have been marked up by quite a few (I know not all) dealers which FoMoCo gets no piece of. These dealers also are not buying local ads for the Lightning, they don't need to, yet they still get to recoup marketing expenditures on each "sale".

Having a previous background in marketing and media, I know what these dealers get as far as marketing allowances from Ford for their sales departments. I also know what some of them spend. It's not surprising to realize these 2 things aren't equal.

While I have seen manufacturer ads on TV and online from time to time in the DC market, I cannot remember the last time that I saw a dealer ad. In fact, it seems that the only time I see anything from a dealer is if someone shoots a “review” of a vehicle on their lot and posts it on their channel on line.

While my dealer experience has been good, I do know that there are crappy dealers out there. Have been for a long time. The problem is that our politicians are protecting the dealers so that OEMs cannot change the business model. Virginia is a classic example of a state that will not let an OEM do direct sales or otherwise punish a dealer for classic shenanigans.

 

[jimfigler]

After reading all this I can't even remember what the point was at the start. I didn't even want the truck. Put in a reservation on November 11th with the thought that I'll never get my invite or at least it would take a year or two. I thought maybe late 2023 or early 2024 I may be ready for the truck. I was happy in March 2023 when Ford said all orders have been taken for MY 22 and I would have to wait for MY 23. Then a month later i get my invite. I'm happy I hit the lottery and pulled in the 23 Pro at 22 pricing but i'd be pissed if I reserved day 1 and got beat out by the likes of me.
Also my dealer was good. Told me no markups from day 1. Just the price protection took some work.

 

[3rdgenfan]

I'm happy I hit the lottery and pulled in the 23 Pro at 22 pricing but i'd be pissed if I reserved day 1 and got beat out by the likes of me.

I'll get my pitchfork ready and head north now, then.

-Day 1 loser

 

[RickLightning]

To use Ford's service department, you dont have to buy a vehicle from that dealer.

I have 3 dealers within 50 miles of me. I didn't have to purchase a truck from any of them to be able to use their service center, accessories/parts department, ask questions, and field concerns.

Everyone is so used to lumping all these departments together as the "dealer". Each department has its own bottom line, and each department has its own profitability.


I understand that it's not that simple, and businesses hide profits and losses across departments and that's just the price of being a business. However, the car purchasing model has changed. Sales departments have much less responsibility, yet still get a larger portion of the purchase price than I think they deserve.

You say you understand that businesses "hide profits and losses across departments", which really says you don't understand business. A dealership is a business. Every department contributes to profits, or not.

You state that you can use any dealership's service department. That's if they let you. They can easily refuse to do business with you. They can refuse to sell parts to you, and refuse to answer questions. They aren't required to do any of that.

My dealership will not perform EV battery service on vehicles not purchased from them, even if they vehicle belongs to an existing customer, because they can't handle the volume. Customers come first, you would be turned away for battery service. I have 1/2 dozen within 30 miles or less.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

You say you understand that businesses "hide profits and losses across departments", which really says you don't understand business. A dealership is a business. Every department contributes to profits, or not.

You state that you can use any dealership's service department. That's if they let you. They can easily refuse to do business with you. They can refuse to sell parts to you, and refuse to answer questions. They aren't required to do any of that.

My dealership will not perform EV battery service on vehicles not purchased from them, even if they vehicle belongs to an existing customer, because they can't handle the volume. Customers come first, you would be turned away for battery service. I have 1/2 dozen within 30 miles or less.

Yes, every department contributes to profits. However, Businesses will retain departments that lose money if retaining that department adds value in another way.

In your specific case, I guess I would lose priority at your dealer. Schucks. Yes, any business has the right to refuse business to any customer. The service department's at dealers within 30 miles of me (3 of them) all will perform any service requested on my truck, and of course, they will all also honor my service contract. They seem to be in the business of wanting to make new customers. (I inquired after the headache I had with the sales department at the dealer I purchased from)

Anyway, this entire thread has turned into a dealer slandering/defense thread. That's in no way the intention of the thread, it was calling out Ford Motor Company's gross mismanagement.

My dealer was hot garbage, I know that isn't the case for all.

 

[jimfigler]

I'll get my pitchfork ready and head north now, then.

-Day 1 loser

The way the whole reservation process was handled was nuts.

 

[swajames]

Ford/Farley indicated they knew where $2bn in margin had been wasted and has taken/is taking steps to address that. Some of the loss is also likely attributable to the ongoing reorganization into divisions.

My dealer was excellent for both my Bronco and my Lightning. I got my Bronco reasonably soon compared to most others and my Lightning very early in the cycle once deliveries started last summer. My dealer does not ever charge ADM, there was no BS, and when my Lightning had an initial issue with an update not installing they fixed it. That's the biggest volume dealer in Northern California, so many other customers will have had the same experience.

Ford's big mistake, IMO was Pro pricing. They built a great truck at all trim levels, but Pro pricing was clearly unsustainable from day one and it set completely false expectations. The 40K price point was idiotic and because some customers managed to luck out and get one for that price it's set expectations that others are missing out by not being able to get one. Ford has to understand and own that, as it's set the tone for a lot of negativity we see. Not so much on here, but the non-owner trolling on the largest Facebook group is off the charts and the increased Pro pricing and unavailability seems to provide the foundation for a lot of it.

All I know is this is the best truck I've ever owned and I think Ford did a great job, as did my dealer.

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