$12,500 tax credit possible?

[greenne]

Huge cost premium.

150 kWh battery pack = $15,000
Titan 5.4 engine = $2,000

Pricing Ford is matching the pricing of the F150 gas but that is not enough to get someone to switch from a gas to an EV with the range, charging, towing and other issues. A gas vehicle will be much more practical.

Right now, unless an early adopter looking to cut one's green house gas emissions, there needs to be an incentive.

"The Most Radical Thing About Ford's F-150 Lightning? The Price. After tax credits, the base model of the electric pickup will be cheaper than its gas-fueled sibling, removing what has been a big barrier for EV sales."

And they do mean "radical" as Ford is eating the cost difference which no other mfg is doing as one can see with $56k Hyundai's or VW's or Kia's or Chevy's, none are luxury car mfgs or status brands.

The Wyden plan has the incentive stopping when we reach 50% EV's which makes sense.

I think it goes further than that. If our intent is to get EVs on the road in significant numbers quickly for environmental purposes.. simply choosing an electric over an ICE at purchase time is not enough. Cars last longer and longer, people keep cars longer due to reliability and replacement cost. Even if we were to sell only EVs starting tomorrow, a significant number of the gas cars sold today(and those already on the road) would continue to be on the road 10, 15, perhaps 20yrs from now.

If we are serious about EV adoption we need to start convincing people to "trade up" and make the switch earlier than they would normally. We can do that by appealing to their environmental concerns, but it is likely more effective to appeal to their cost concerns. Its just a reality that nothing motivates people more than money.

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[tkeru408]

Anyone know if the $12,500 credit is in the latest infrastructure bill currently under consideration, or if it's been removed?

 

[sotek2345]

Anyone know if the $12,500 credit is in the latest infrastructure bill currently under consideration, or if it's been removed?

It is not in the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Supposedly it will be in the larger reconciliation bill the Dems are working but we don't have any specifics

 

[vandy1981]

Anyone know if the $12,500 credit is in the latest infrastructure bill currently under consideration, or if it's been removed?

There is no change in subsidies with the current bill. The bill does include a few billion for charging infrastructure and electric school buses.

 

[tkeru408]

@sotek2345, @vandy1981 thank you both. I didn't think it was in there, but thought I might be missing something.

 

[jperry5835]

I think it goes further than that. If our intent is to get EVs on the road in significant numbers quickly for environmental purposes.. simply choosing an electric over an ICE at purchase time is not enough. Cars last longer and longer, people keep cars longer due to reliability and replacement cost. Even if we were to sell only EVs starting tomorrow, a significant number of the gas cars sold today(and those already on the road) would continue to be on the road 10, 15, perhaps 20yrs from now.

If we are serious about EV adoption we need to start convincing people to "trade up" and make the switch earlier than they would normally. We can do that by appealing to their environmental concerns, but it is likely more effective to appeal to their cost concerns. Its just a reality that nothing motivates people more than money.

While I agree the cars being sold today could potentionaly be on the road up to 20 years in the future, my speculation is the gas prices will continue to rise to the point that people will not be able to afford to drive them. I think once the EV's start getting more widespread, the federal government will start raising the taxes on the gas to force people to change.

 

[greenne]

While I agree the cars being sold today could potentionaly be on the road up to 20 years in the future, my speculation is the gas prices will continue to rise to the point that people will not be able to afford to drive them. I think once the EV's start getting more widespread, the federal government will start raising the taxes on the gas to force people to change.

I know some people are here will lose it when I say this, but don't be surprised if a "cash for clunkers" type deal is proposed down the road. Trade in a ICE vehicle for an EV...get some type of government incentive. The government may decide its cheaper to pay people to drive less damaging EVs vs. paying for the damage ICE vehicles cause (environmental cleanup, medical costs, costs due to climate change etc).

Its either that or a carbon tax(or raising gas tax)..which I think would be even less popular.

 

[greenne]

@sotek2345, @vandy1981 thank you both. I didn't think it was in there, but thought I might be missing something.

I think some modification(improvement) to the EV tax credit is all but certain to come in the reconciliation bill if that get passed. EV tax credits have a lot of support and Biden seems to be making it one of his priorities.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Can assure you a $52k Tesla is not a "luxury product". It's expensive because it is an EV. Other than being an EV it's a stark and technically quirky product. I wanted a luxury car for $52k, it would not be a Tesla.

As noted before most of the Federal tax credit went to Leafs and Volts, hardly luxury cars.

Kona is hardly a luxury car but a Kona EV is $17k more than ICE and has less range.

Also the income to qualify for the full $7,500 ranges from $53k for single to $66k for married, again hardly "wealthy" which explains the Leafs and Volts.

First EV's like first ICE cars are expensive. It wasn't until Henry Musk got the numbers down in to the $40k range of current Teslas to match.

We need people into EV's faster than we are doing it and offering financial incentive is the best way to transition to EV's. We are not moving fast enough and the fire and ice of global warming are overtaking us.

"A controversial MIT study from 1972 forecast the collapse of civilization – and Gaya Herrington is here to deliver the bad news. The MIT scientists said we needed to act now to achieve a smooth transition and avoid costs,” Herrington told the Guardian this week. “That didn’t happen, so we’re seeing the impact of climate change.”

bwahahaha.... a $52 vehicle isn't a luxury product? What first world do you live in? There's plenty of $20k new vehicles available in the U.S. I spend much of my time in third world places, mud road villages like Uganda, Malawi, Rwanda, Siberia, western China, the high Andes, where the dream is to upgrade to a bicycle and maybe someday have a scooter. Yes, $52k is a luxe product, by a VERY wide margin. The EV credit is now fully dead.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

bwahahaha.... a $52 vehicle isn't a luxury product? What first world do you live in? There's plenty of $20k new vehicles available in the U.S. I spend much of my time in third world places, mud road villages like Uganda, Malawi, Rwanda, Siberia, western China, the high Andes, where the dream is to upgrade to a bicycle and maybe someday have a scooter. Yes, $52k is a luxe product, by a VERY wide margin. The EV credit is now fully dead.

Please be more specific about how the credit is “dead”. Do you not think it’ll be included in the reconciliation bill?

 

[shutterbug]

bwahahaha.... a $52 vehicle isn't a luxury product? What first world do you live in? There's plenty of $20k new vehicles available in the U.S. I spend much of my time in third world places, mud road villages like Uganda, Malawi, Rwanda, Siberia, western China, the high Andes, where the dream is to upgrade to a bicycle and maybe someday have a scooter. Yes, $52k is a luxe product, by a VERY wide margin. The EV credit is now fully dead.

I think plenty is a bit overstating it. Ford only has 2 in the $20K range. Ecosport and Maverick. Average is now over $40K. For $52K you don't quiet get a luxurious vehicle, but spending $52K on one is definitely a luxury.

 

[shutterbug]

Please be more specific about how the credit is “dead”. Do you not think it’ll be included in the reconciliation bill?

It doesn't matter what is included in the reconciliation bill. As of yesterday at least one Democrat senator put a kibosh on its current shape.

 

[greenne]

It doesn't matter what is included in the reconciliation bill. As of yesterday at least one Democrat senator put a kibosh on its current shape.

And how exactly would they kill it? There's nothing in the bipartisan bill I saw that changes it. Without action it would just continue as is.

I take this to mean it would be improved.....I don't see there being support for it being killed off entirely, despite what one senator may want because he's beholden to big oil....

 

[greenne]

https://www.barrons.com/articles/in...-stock-51627594593?reflink=article_emailShare

The second reason is, the bill simply isn’t as big a deal for EVs as investors might have hoped. There is about $15 billion in there for charging infrastructure, but that is a far cry from the $157 billion proposed for EVs in earlier versions of the bill.

“So far it’s well below the initial Biden green plan,” Wedbush analyst Dan Ives tells Barron’s. “Federal funding remains a linchpin to kicking off the green tidal wave domestically.” A green tidal wave for investors means federal support that drives EV adoption faster than expected and is a boon for EV stocks such as Tesla (ticker: TSLA) and EV-related stocks like ChargePoint (CHPT).

Federal support still matters, but this bill just isn’t where that support will come from. Most of the EV support, including purchase incentives, is coming in the $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation package, which actually might be easier to pass.

Gary Black, managing partner of the Future Fund, expects the budget reconciliation package will include the $7,500 EV purchase tax credit. That is a tax deduction for consumers.That legislation needs a simple majority—50 votes plus the vice president’s vote—to get through the Senate. Black is looking for new EV purchase incentives to be in place by the fall.

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I am unsure what they mean by EV purchase credit.....is he simply alluding to the fact that the 200k cap would go away and Tesla/GM would be allowed back in? Of course I'd be thrilled with up to $12,500, however it would be a goiod first step to make it refundable(or able to carry forward). As we've discussed ad nauseum, most people can't even use what we have now because they don't have $7500 of tax liability

 

[sotek2345]

https://www.barrons.com/articles/in...-stock-51627594593?reflink=article_emailShare

The second reason is, the bill simply isn’t as big a deal for EVs as investors might have hoped. There is about $15 billion in there for charging infrastructure, but that is a far cry from the $157 billion proposed for EVs in earlier versions of the bill.

“So far it’s well below the initial Biden green plan,” Wedbush analyst Dan Ives tells Barron’s. “Federal funding remains a linchpin to kicking off the green tidal wave domestically.” A green tidal wave for investors means federal support that drives EV adoption faster than expected and is a boon for EV stocks such as Tesla (ticker: TSLA) and EV-related stocks like ChargePoint (CHPT).

Federal support still matters, but this bill just isn’t where that support will come from. Most of the EV support, including purchase incentives, is coming in the $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation package, which actually might be easier to pass.

Gary Black, managing partner of the Future Fund, expects the budget reconciliation package will include the $7,500 EV purchase tax credit. That is a tax deduction for consumers.That legislation needs a simple majority—50 votes plus the vice president’s vote—to get through the Senate. Black is looking for new EV purchase incentives to be in place by the fall.

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I am unsure what they mean by EV purchase credit.....is he simply alluding to the fact that the 200k cap would go away and Tesla/GM would be allowed back in? Of course I'd be thrilled with up to $12,500, however it would be a goiod first step to make it refundable(or able to carry forward). As we've discussed ad nauseum, most people can't even use what we have now because they don't have $7500 of tax liability

There is a push (not sure it will be successful) to make it a point of sale rebate, so it come straight off of the purchase price, vs. When you do your tax return.

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