"EVs require less maintenance" … oh really … : )

[F-150 Prius]

The Venn Diagram of people who say "EVs bad, ICE good" and "Ecoboost V6 bad, V8 good" without being prompted or asked by anyone has to have some significant overlap.

Also:

I wish I could have used "I predict" as a valid source for every research paper I've ever done. That would have made things so much easier.

WePredict.com is the name of the research company.

 

[wayfarer556]

WePredict.com is the name of the research company.

Sorry I meant that as a silly joke.

I find the source of "We Predict" to be something to be skeptical of. They are a privately owned startup that employs less than 40 employees, and all the press releases were extremely tight on any actual, raw information that they are using.

To be fair, my skepticism lead me to research them and they do state where they get the data from. There's obviously a financial incentive for them, as they offer what they call a "Deepview" platform that enterprises can subscribe to.

https://www.wepredict.com/frequently-asked-questions-true-cost-awards/

Where Does The Data Come From?
We Predict’s Deepview data is compiled from millions of repair orders of vehicles serviced at franchise and independent repair facilities. When a vehicle is serviced, repair facilities record the work completed in a dealer management system (DMS), capturing all information relevant to the work (mileage, parts replaced, part costs, labor time, customer complaints, cause as recorded by the technician, correction, and other key aspects). We Predict worked with strategic partners in the industry to create the legal framework necessary, bring together this vast and previously unseen information, and share these insights for the first time.

If anyone wants to read the Presentation that We Predict was using (that the press ran away with), you can find it here:
https://s3-prod.autonews.com/2021-05/We Predict APA Presentation.pdf

Here's where these news sources are basing their data:

"Campaign" costs = marketing costs. Has nothing to do with repairing or maintaining an EV.

And this is just for the first 3 months of ownership...if something on an EV vehicle breaks, as they are a small part of the entire market, then it makes a lot of sense why the parts cost so much. Spare parts are not produced in nearly the volume as for ICE vehicles. I myself can attest to this...the Hybrid Drive burned out on my truck within the first 3 months. It was a very expensive replacement that was fully covered by my warranty.

As the title of this entire thread is

"EVs require less maintenance" … oh really … : )

I guess the answer, based on the actual study that youtube video speaks about...is "yeah really."

 

[shutterbug]

I think the point of the review (16 million records?) was to compare EV to ICE costs. These are not necessarily out-of-pocket for the consumer, since the title is repairs and maintenance.

The actual title is Cost of Maintenance/Repairs After 3 Months. So yes. necessarily out-of-pocket cost for the owner. And in 3 months. Just because someone declares himself a researcher, does not mean he researched anything.

 

[Theo1000]

On my 7th EV, no really maintenance costs to speak off even early on. My Etron had a faulty brake light, but I think it was just a bad batch could have happened on any car.

 

[F150ROD]

Installing a charger is not maintenance or repair. It's a cost of owning an EV.

Right, however in the first post it was mentioned that on top of maintenance or repair there is a cost for a charger installation. I was just pointing out that some States also offer incentives to offset that cost, which was my mistake as it comes down to counties/cities etc.

Which state incentive are you referring to that covers 100% of charger + installation?

California, and I should clarify that it depends on the county within the State. For example, SCE covered 100% cost of my Tesla Charger and installation after the fact. I received a check in the mail once I sent in all the information requested.

I just checked and that rebate has now gone down significantly but you can still get something to offset the cost. Looks like us early adopters ended up getting some good benefits....

https://www.aqmd.gov/home/programs/community/community-detail?title=ev-charging-incentive

 

[Vulnox]

Yeah that report makes a lot of assumptions that are less related to EV ownership and more related to the individual. We bought a C-Max Energi back in 2016 and had a Level 2 charger installed, which IS NOT required, so anyone including it as a “Maintenance” cost is either a fool or working on an agenda. But when we moved to MI, I brought that EV charger (not really the charger, those are in the car, but just keeping it simple), with us and used it in the new house. Then we got rid of the C-Max and had an Escape for a bit. Got rid of the Escape because the fuel consumption and that was killer, and we only needed one vehicle due to WAH.

Now my wife is going back into the office and wanted a cheap EV. So we found a 2017 Focus Electric with low miles and warranty. Guess what? I got to use that same Level 2 EVSE from the C-Max and it’s working great. We have had the Focus Electric for a little while now, and total cost of gas and maintenance has been $0.00. Not even a cost for the EVSE since it moves between vehicles. Solar power for most of the Focus Electric charging energy requirements too, but that’s just a bonus.

If we had bought a Mach E or Lightning or whatever, our 90 day maintenance cost would still be $0. My F-150 90 day maintenance costs have been $0 also, but fuel cost (even taking electricity vs gas cost per mile) has been significantly higher. If it wasn’t for all my FordPass points, my oil changes and that definitely wouldn’t be free.

Anyway, bad study like most studies on the subject, not all of it is their fault as the Individual is important in the discussion. Saying stuff like wheel/tire damage is more likely in an EV and including that is dumb also, and insulting the intelligence of their viewers, probably successfully in some cases. A Mach E is 4300-4800lbs depending on battery/drive configuration. An F-150 is 4000-5500lbs depending on trim/cab/engine configuration. So how is weight a factor in an EV, but not an F-150?

The answer there is that many EVs from the manufacturer come with low profile tire/wheel combos. That is a manufacturer choice, not an EV related side effect. Wheel/Tire damage rates are likely higher on F-150 Limited trucks with 22” wheels and low profile tires also. But again that has nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

EVs have their shortcomings, but stuff like this is unhelpful. Boy do I hate it.

 

[wayfarer556]

Yeah that report makes a lot of assumptions that are less related to EV ownership and more related to the individual. We bought a C-Max Energi back in 2016 and had a Level 2 charger installed, which IS NOT required, so anyone including it as a “Maintenance” cost is either a fool or working on an agenda. But when we moved to MI, I brought that EV charger (not really the charger, those are in the car, but just keeping it simple), with us and used it in the new house. Then we got rid of the C-Max and had an Escape for a bit. Got rid of the Escape because the fuel consumption and that was killer, and we only needed one vehicle due to WAH.

Now my wife is going back into the office and wanted a cheap EV. So we found a 2017 Focus Electric with low miles and warranty. Guess what? I got to use that same Level 2 EVSE from the C-Max and it’s working great. We have had the Focus Electric for a little while now, and total cost of gas and maintenance has been $0.00. Not even a cost for the EVSE since it moves between vehicles. Solar power for most of the Focus Electric charging energy requirements too, but that’s just a bonus.

If we had bought a Mach E or Lightning or whatever, our 90 day maintenance cost would still be $0. My F-150 90 day maintenance costs have been $0 also, but fuel cost (even taking electricity vs gas cost per mile) has been significantly higher. If it wasn’t for all my FordPass points, my oil changes and that definitely wouldn’t be free.

Anyway, bad study like most studies on the subject, not all of it is their fault as the Individual is important in the discussion. Saying stuff like wheel/tire damage is more likely in an EV and including that is dumb also, and insulting the intelligence of their viewers, probably successfully in some cases. A Mach E is 4300-4800lbs depending on battery/drive configuration. An F-150 is 4000-5500lbs depending on trim/cab/engine configuration. So how is weight a factor in an EV, but not an F-150?

The answer there is that many EVs from the manufacturer come with low profile tire/wheel combos. That is a manufacturer choice, not an EV related side effect. Wheel/Tire damage rates are likely higher on F-150 Limited trucks with 22” wheels and low profile tires also. But again that has nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

EVs have their shortcomings, but stuff like this is unhelpful. Boy do I hate it.

The media is just mining this study for sound bites, and people who can't be bothered to actually read the study but like to dunk on EVs are using the sound bites to justify their own biases.

The actual study isn't just for individual consumers, it's for large manufacturers and dealers. The company that made the study doesn't even offer it for sale unless you contact them directly...a sure sign that they only really deal with sellers and not necessarily the buyers. Unless individual people spend money on their own marketing campaigns.

 

[Kickaha]

I dont know where they got their data but my 2016 Tesla Model X has been very inexpensive to own. I have had a few repairs under warranty but for "routine" maintenance, only my annual service has come out of pocket and that was been very reasonable - about $400.

 

[sotek2345]

I dont know where they got their data but my 2016 Tesla Model X has been very inexpensive to own. I have had a few repairs under warranty but for "routine" maintenance, only my annual service has come out of pocket and that was been very reasonable - about $400.

$400 per year for service! (or do you mean $400 total in 5 years of ownership). $400/yr. would be a very high maintenance cost!

 

[Vulnox]

$400 per year for service! (or do you mean $400 total in 5 years of ownership). $400/yr. would be a very high maintenance cost!

Agreed, depending on what is being considered maintenance costs that would super upset me, on an EV or ICE vehicle. My annual maintenance costs run about $150 for any vehicle I’ve ever had, and that includes wiper blades, oil changes, tire rotation, etc. Anything more than that on an annual basis would be frustrating. Obviously stuff like new tires are part of maintenance, but shouldn’t be annual for most people.

 

[greenne]

Agreed, depending on what is being considered maintenance costs that would super upset me, on an EV or ICE vehicle. My annual maintenance costs run about $150 for any vehicle I’ve ever had, and that includes wiper blades, oil changes, tire rotation, etc. Anything more than that on an annual basis would be frustrating. Obviously stuff like new tires are part of maintenance, but shouldn’t be annual for most people.

To be honest the only thing I can think of as recurring is oil changes at $50-75. Air filters every year or two, transmission, radiator etc at 50-75k miles along with tires.

I really don't see how I could rack up more than $100 a year...others $200-500 every few years.

 

[shutterbug]

Here is why these types of reports are BS and totally useless:

According to FordPass I spent $225.48 in services on the day when I picked up my Mustang Mach-E. What it actually was: (1) Programming the 2nd FOB, (2) Side window Deflectors, and (3) Seat covers. None of these really qualify as Maintenance or service. But the dim bulbs at "we predict" probably included them as such, since they didn't have access to details.

 

[Pedaldude]

A lot of these 'study,' ratings and quality assurance programs are just protection rackets to scam.

J.D. Power has a lot of articles written about how fake it is, yet they still market their bogus ratings and rake in cash from the manufacturers. Naturally, tons of smaller entities are vying for the table scraps.

As for EV's, the manufacturers have been throwing a lot of shit at the wall when it comes to hyping them. Maintenance costs is one of those things.

About the only cost advantage that EVs hold over ICE vehicles is better efficiency and that electric motors are easier to make and easier to make in less sophisticated factories. That is ignoring the battery, since that's still something being figured out.

Many of the systems in EVs are either identical, or very similar to their ICE equivalent.

They still have a cooling system, though they aren't subjected to the same extreme conditions, so the maintenance should be less intense.

The AC system is pretty much the same, though it's generally powered by its own electric motor instead of an accessory drive, so packaging can be more efficient and maintenance friendly if the manufacturer wants it to be. Many modern ICE cars are a nightmare to service AC components and sometimes it can be six hours of labor to replace a $15 part. If manufacturers don't take advantage of the potential of easier AC servicing costs, they're really passing up a great opportunity.

The suspension is the same in EVs, only they tend to be heavier because of battery sizes and as a result, those components will wear quicker and will cost exactly the same or maybe even more to service in the case of hub motor EVs.

Aside from the missing gasoline engine, electric drivetrains share more components with ICE vehicles than manufacturers want buyers to know and this is where they lie the most and where some EV aficionados like to jump in and play 'EV semantics' because they have been brainwashed by the EV propaganda.

Most EVs have transmissions, or more correctly, transaxles; since the differential is integrated into the gearbox. They need the same maintenance service that ICE cars do, though to be fair, lubrication technology has made transmission fluid changes and differential gear oil changes practically nonexistent for ICE cars, which is a good thing because most owners totally ignore those things. Even wheel hub motor EVs which don't use differentials, might still have planetary gears built into the hubs and those will be subjected to extreme torque as well as lots of heat. While most EVs now are single speed fixed gear, already they are adding speeds and Bosch is even talking about making an EV oriented CVT.

The CV joints and axle half-shafts are subjected to way more acceleration torque as well as regenerative braking torque. Even properly sized, I expect them to have a much shorter lifespan than on low torque and lighter gasoline engine cars. Axle seals, bearings and motor mounts will all be potential areas that need servicing.

The body will have most of the same parts, windows will still malfunction, windshield washer motors might still burn out or strip gears, wipers will still need replacement. The door hinges still need to be oiled, the door strike greased. Lights will still fail, wires will still chafe, connectors loosen, moonroofs will jump their tracks. Then the infotainment systems are just as problematic if not more, since they tend to be larger and even more integrated in EVs. Back in the day, if your AM/FM radio broke, you could get a replacement for around $100. Lately, I have been seeing numbers in the thousands for even ten year old cars.

Another very sad fact is that with relaxed consumer protection laws as well as failures to enforce the laws that remain, millions of dollars in unnecessary maintenance costs are being wasted by consumers in both snake-oil scams like fuel injection system cleaning machines, engine oil flushes, transmission flushes as well as maintenance charged for and not done. Some of these I have seen either recommended on nearly brand new cars or actually charged for after a service manager browbeat the owner into doing after they came in for an oil change. It's disgusting and I have seen cars that the owners paid for expensive unnecessary maintenance while the dealership or independent garage totally overlooked actual repairs that were legitimate safety concerns. So until they figure out how to scam EV owners, I expect the ICE maintenance costs to be inflated by at least 25% just through unethical practices alone.

One looming cost that I expect with the next generation of EVs is the inverters, controllers, converters and other EV specific high vol electrical components. Right now, they're made from top notch materials sourced from legitimate manufacturers and likely overbuilt to show enhanced reliability of the EV drivetrains. However, as competition races to the bottom in terms of cost, that reliability will suffer. Inverter power source welders have suffered that fate, once perfected, the earlier name brand units were fairly robust and had decent parts availability but as the technology became more affordable and generic manufacturers entered into the market, they really started to make a bad name for the technology and even some of the good brands started having problems as the shitty parts started circulating.

 

[minirx7]

Prior to my F150, had a 2018 Nissan Leaf SL, put on about 30,000kms in total (very low mileage).

Total cost of ownership for 3 years lease = $0.00.. Not even joking about that. Just went in for one battery inspection but never brought it in for ANYTHING!... Was the car perfect? no, but i can totally vouch for EV's being low cost!

 

[Lime Green]

Rather poorly written, IMO. Installing a charging solution is not always necessary depending on resources available. As an example, I already had a 220v/50A circuit with a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage that was once used for other tools. So when I bought my first Tesla, I didn’t need anything else. EV charging is popping up all over and it’s becoming a bigger thing with new construction.

In almost 6 years of Tesla ownership, the two cars I’ve owned have been super low maintenance. In fact, the lowest maintenance vehicles I’ve ever owned. No oil changes or routine anything that I have to do to ICE vehicles. With my 2019 Model S that is now 2 years old, I’ve had to top off the wiper fluid and replace wiper blades. That is it. Will be putting on new tires in about a month.

There is a lot of criticism over Tesla build quality in some forums and yes, there have been some interesting quality-control head scratchers. However, the majority of all the cars off the line are just fine.

I am so looking forward to the Ford Lightning. A truck that won’t need me to change the oil 2 to 3 times every year. I can probably go more than 40K miles on a set of brake pads, like almost 2X as far, ideally. Start every day with a “full tank” and no trips to a gas station or equivalent unless I’m on a longer road trip.

Commercial fleets are going to buy the crap out of the Lighting Pro trucks. Total no-brainer for anyone running trucks around town. Really need some options for shorter cabs, longer beds. I’m sure those are coming, but will probably be 2023+

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