Charge Station EV conversion to $4.50 per gallon @18mpg

[Cvh8601]

I guess it depends on your location and fuel prices. In Canada it costs me half as much to use my f150 lightning as it does my cx-5 on a road trip.

Overall I've cut my fuel cost to a 1/4 of what my old f150 2.7l was using.

What seems to get consistently lost in these cost/mi discussions vs ICE F-150 is that comparing the lightning to an eco boost is not at all 1:1.

for 2024, the higher output eco boost makes at most 2/3 the power and torque of a lightning. The supercharged 5.2L Raptor is the closest competitor (More HP, less TQ than lightning).

That Raptor one gets an EPA 10/15 mpg rating. That Is the comparison point for the lightning. The 60+ MPGe is still massively cheaper than running that monster.

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[Heliian]

lost in these cost/mi discussions vs ICE F-150

Oh ya, all the time. I find it amazing my full size lightning is twice as efficient as a shit box SUV.

However, we also get people saying that the lightning isn't as efficient as a model 3 without realizing one is a huge truck and the other a compact.

 

[B. Lane]

Yep, took a long road trip from Huntsville, TX to Boise, ID and calculated the mileage cost to be about twice what my old 2016 ICE F150 would have cost. But one of the main reasons I bought the Lightning was to be able to power my home with it during power outages and avoid the expense of a generator. I have already used it twice for that purpose in the past year (Generac system as detailed by others in this forum) and it has performed in that capacity beyond my expectations. I'll just use the wife's vehicle (gasoline) for long trips from now on. Love my Lightning so far, except for the uneven tire wear issue. Got 30,000 on the stock tires so far, but will have to replace soon.

 

[Cvh8601]

Did some fun conversion calcs for fun. Used costs typical near me so YMMV:

	Gallon	kWh	$/Gal	$/kWh
Gas	1.00	33.70	$3.50	$0.10
DC Charge	0.03	1.00	$16.85	$0.50
AC Charge	0.03	1.00	$6.07	$0.18
	Mi/Gal	Mi/kWh
Lightning	67.40	2.00
35 MPG Car	35.00	1.04
25 MPG Car	25.00	0.74
Raptor 5.2 (10 MPG)	10.00	0.30
	Gal/Full Pack	kWh/Full Pack
Lightning	3.89	131.00
	$/mi
Lightning AC Charged	0.09
Lightning DC Charged	0.25
35 MPG Car	0.10
25 MPG Car	0.14
Raptor 5.2 (10 MPG)	0.35

Interesting observations:
- Lightning’s “gas tank” is less than 4 gallons of gas
- Lightning is super efficient even compared to a relatively efficient car, and has incredible power, comfort, and cargo capacity to boot
- Lightning road tripping is only going to be cheaper than a fairly inefficient vehicle. However, comfort and cargo capability is still way better than those ‘cheaper’ options.

 

[John Becker]

Is that an Excel file? Can you attach it for download?

 

[Cvh8601]

I did it in Numbers and so had to export to excel. Should work

 

[John Becker]

Got it. Thank you!

 

[inchman254]

It amazes me that people here in Ontario (Canada) would ever consider an ICE if they're not doing constant long distance trips (Although I do have a 2022 Kia Telluride that doesn't get used much anymore).

We have Ultra-Low Time of Use rates where it's 6c/kwh between 11pm and 7am (it's posted as 2.8c but there's about a 3 cent delivery charge). That's US4.5c/kwh. Daytime rates are about CAN15c with a REALLY high rate of CAN30c on this Ultra-low plan between 4pm and 9pm. We don't radically modify our lifestyle, except I make sure the hot tub heater (4kw) doesn't run and we run the washer, dryer and dishwasher outside that time when possible. With no time of use plan, the price is a flat CAN 13c.

One of the advantages of lots of hydro and nuclear power....

And gas here costs about CAN$1.40/litre. That works out to US$4/USgal. Ya win some, ya lose some.

Fast chargers (150kw) cost about CA50c/kwh... US37c/kwh.

I'm gonna do this in metric, but you will see the difference between ICE and EV here in Canada. I use ~28kwh/100 km in my Lightning. So, it costs me $1.60 to go 100 km (60 miles). In my previous F-150 I used 11 litres/100 km. At 1.40 per litre, it cost me $15.40 to go that same 100 km. To drive 20,000km (12,000 miles) per year, the difference is $2700 (minus a few enroute top-ups).

The difference in price between a new 2024 Lariat 3.5 and a 2024 Lightning Lariat at my dealer today is just over $10,000.

Easy Decision.

 

[MM in SouthTX]

What seems to get consistently lost in these cost/mi discussions vs ICE F-150 is that comparing the lightning to an eco boost is not at all 1:1.

for 2024, the higher output eco boost makes at most 2/3 the power and torque of a lightning. The supercharged 5.2L Raptor is the closest competitor (More HP, less TQ than lightning).

That Raptor one gets an EPA 10/15 mpg rating. That Is the comparison point for the lightning. The 60+ MPGe is still massively cheaper than running that monster.

I sold the Lightning and got a PowerBoost about 4 months ago. I can tell you that I do not miss the extra acceleration that the Lightning has over the PowerBoost. I am also getting 17 mpg on the highway under lousy conditions (headwinds and doing 75-80) and 25 mpg in good conditions (tailwind and 60-65 with traffic). That is the comparison vehicle for the Lightning, not the Raptor.

 

[StevenC56]

I sold the Lightning and got a PowerBoost about 4 months ago. I can tell you that I do not miss the extra acceleration that the Lightning has over the PowerBoost. I am also getting 17 mpg on the highway under lousy conditions (headwinds and doing 75-80) and 25 mpg in good conditions (tailwind and 60-65 with traffic). That is the comparison vehicle for the Lightning, not the Raptor.

Goes to show you they are not the right vehicle for everyone. I certainly don't/won't miss the noises, smells, oil changes, plus long term ICE and transmission issues.

 

[chl]

This is a topic that we need regulations on the limit per KW for EV charging stations.

Typical fast charging EV rates I've seen between $0.45 and $0.55 per KW.

My old 2020 ICE 5.0 F150 averaged 18mpg.

18miles devided by 2miles per KW = 9KW. At $0.50 x 9KW = $4.50.

loved the truck and 99% of my charging is at home, but without limits. I believe we will get fk'd 5 years down the road....just saying

Why I always charge at home.

When there are enough choices out there for DC Fast Charging maybe there will be competition and the prices will drop.

On the other hand, utility electricity costs are expected to rise, though often only as much as a local regulator commission will allow.

My 2012 Leaf regularly gets 4.5mi/kWh, but the range is limited to 80 miles. Costs less than 2 cents per mile home charging at reduced rate between 1am and 6am.

Our 2015 Prius gets 50mpg on a regular basis. Costs about 6 cents per mile if I buy gas at COSTCO

So far the 2023 Lightning Pro SR has been costing me about 2 cents per mile, had it 11 months driven a bit over 1192 miles. Almost all local non-highway driving at 25 to 35 mph, non-aggressively.

Out on the highway a big boxy truck is subject to a lot of drag and some more tire friction so range and efficiency drop will drop.

I keep waiting for Aptera to come through with their solar 1000 mile range 3-wheeler...

 

[Nuts&volts]

Do you perhaps mean 40 cents a mile?... $0.40 x 18 miles is $7.20 a so called gallon.

The hummer would have cost $685 for the same distance at $2.74 per gallon and a 1000miles/4mpg.

The truck would have cost around $152 for the 1000miles at 18mpg.

Love my truck, but the range does suck. Charging with the Tesla membership certainly cost a lot less than gas would have. I have been making the same trip just about monthly for the last 6 years, my total cost for charging at Tesla was about $45 over 3 stops. In my old Tacoma (18mpg freeway) it would routinely cost about $120 each way. Time is money, but my time isn’t that valuable. I’ll wait while I charge.

 

[user-name-required]

This is a topic that we need regulations on the limit per KW for EV charging stations.

Typical fast charging EV rates I've seen between $0.45 and $0.55 per KW.

My old 2020 ICE 5.0 F150 averaged 18mpg.

18miles devided by 2miles per KW = 9KW. At $0.50 x 9KW = $4.50.

loved the truck and 99% of my charging is at home, but without limits. I believe we will get fk'd 5 years down the road....just saying

This is mostly an America gas cost being heavily subsidized problem.

Here in Canada, the comparison of the same would be:

18mpg = 13.07 Litres per 100kms.

Avg fuel cost in the province I live right now (not summer peaks, current) is $1.75/Litre.

GAS truck = $22.87 per 100kms


Lightning, public charging only:
Price per kwh is about the same at fast chargers, so will use $0.50 as reference point.
2 miles per kwh = 3.6kms per kwh. * (100/3.6) to get to base 100km, = 27.8 kwH per 100kms. Call it 28

Public charging -$14 per 100kms.



Around the entire developed world, the cost of fuel is way, way higher than in USA. All over Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, etc., fuel prices are significantly higher than in the USA.


I did this calculation for us before we bought our Lightning recently. I am not disputing your figures, but I think it is a touch less about getting fked on the charging rate, than it is about your fuel costs being abnormally low against the rest of the planet. So it is harder to compete, using that as the yardstick.

 

[MM in SouthTX]

This is mostly an America gas cost being heavily subsidized problem.

It is very difficult to find a good comparison of fossil fuel subsidies to renewable subsidies. Many things that some websites mark down as subsidies are tax deductions that are available to any business. In fact, in 2016 and 2017, the US Government (by their own assessment) had a net revenue of over a billion dollars from fossil fuel "subsidies." That number fluctuates, and the trend has reversed. Also, from the same EIA report:

During FY 2016–22, most federal subsidies were for renewable energy producers (primarily biofuels, wind, and solar), low-income households, and energy-efficiency improvements. During FY 2016–22, nearly half (46%) of federal energy subsidies were associated with renewable energy, and 35% were associated with energy end uses. Federal support for renewable energy of all types more than doubled, from $7.4 billion in FY 2016 to $15.6 billion in FY 2022.

I don't think they include a $7,500 per vehicle tax credit in those calculations.

Please be careful about your sources, and read everything with a skeptical mind. Most "news" these days pushes agendas. Instead of researching facts and trying to find a conclusion, the reverse is prevalent: Start with the conclusion, find the facts to support it, and push the agenda. By both sides of issues. I'm not targeting just one.

I will say this, though. If the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing, you had better hope we have fossil fuels to burn. Trying to switch to renewables right now would cause FAR more devastating consequences than anything the IPCC has dreamed up. Not saying we should not head that direction, but currently there is no alternative.

Finally, it could be that the USA has cheap gas because we produce so much product, and we do a good job of it. I think most European countries have to buy it from outside their borders.

 

[rdr854]

It is very difficult to find a good comparison of fossil fuel subsidies to renewable subsidies. Many things that some websites mark down as subsidies are tax deductions that are available to any business. In fact, in 2016 and 2017, the US Government (by their own assessment) had a net revenue of over a billion dollars from fossil fuel "subsidies." That number fluctuates, and the trend has reversed. Also, from the same EIA report:

During FY 2016–22, most federal subsidies were for renewable energy producers (primarily biofuels, wind, and solar), low-income households, and energy-efficiency improvements. During FY 2016–22, nearly half (46%) of federal energy subsidies were associated with renewable energy, and 35% were associated with energy end uses. Federal support for renewable energy of all types more than doubled, from $7.4 billion in FY 2016 to $15.6 billion in FY 2022.

I don't think they include a $7,500 per vehicle tax credit in those calculations.

Please be careful about your sources, and read everything with a skeptical mind. Most "news" these days pushes agendas. Instead of researching facts and trying to find a conclusion, the reverse is prevalent: Start with the conclusion, find the facts to support it, and push the agenda. By both sides of issues. I'm not targeting just one.

I will say this, though. If the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing, you had better hope we have fossil fuels to burn. Trying to switch to renewables right now would cause FAR more devastating consequences than anything the IPCC has dreamed up. Not saying we should not head that direction, but currently there is no alternative.

Finally, it could be that the USA has cheap gas because we produce so much product, and we do a good job of it. I think most European countries have to buy it from outside their borders.

Interesting tid bit . . . Apparently, while the US produces a substantial amount of oil, most of it is exported because our refineries cannot handle the grade of oil that is extracted here. Thus, it appears that most of what we use is imported from other countries.

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