Federal EV $7500 Rebate for F-150 Lightning

[Deleted member 2919]

Would it not make more sense to use the money from the infrastructure plan on improving the infrastructure? Maybe they could use the money to add EV charging stations...

It is confusing that all the discussion on this is folks getting excited by getting free stuff/stimme, as opposed to getting an improved infrastructure? ?

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[Brian Head Yankee]

Charge station expansion are also in all budget plans and endorsed by both sides of the aisle.

Don:
To get mad about using subsidies to encourage EV adoption is kinda silly.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil.

How is it the fault of the electric consumer on how electricity is generated? Do you live off the grid and generate your own electricity? You think it's crap but I doubt that you live off the grid. In fact isn't using electricity to type on this forum a waste of electricity?

 

[Theo1000]

Would it not make more sense to use the money from the infrastructure plan on improving the infrastructure? Maybe they could use the money to add EV charging stations...

It is confusing that all the discussion on this is folks getting excited by getting free stuff/stimme, as opposed to getting an improved infrastructure? ?

We need both.

In the first round a bunch of chargers were installed in my area, mostly L2. Even some L3 DC fasts. Unfortunately the majority of EV in my area ended up hybrids. Mostly Volts and I3 which preferred to use gas outside and charge at home. The L2 chargers were unused neglected and eventually vandalized. Handful were removed.

This time around the need is for BEV's DC fast, but we need to get the counts of EV's up. Stations need to be used multiple times a day or they go out of service and no one even knows. Need both the chicken and the egg this time.

 

[Don]

Charge station expansion are also in all budget plans and endorsed by both sides of the aisle.

Don:
To get mad about using subsidies to encourage EV adoption is kinda silly.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil.

How is it the fault of the electric consumer on how electricity is generated? Do you live off the grid and generate your own electricity? You think it's crap but I doubt that you live off the grid. In fact isn't using electricity to type on this forum a waste of electricity?

Brian Head Yankee
You have some good points.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

I am all for putting one EV in my driveway. I am not going to turn down the rebate.

 

[jaspercasidino]

I will probably be thrown off of this forum for what I am about to write, so be it! I think this whole idea of giving rebates to those buying EV’s is crap!! It is my tax dollars helping someone buy an EV while over 60 % of the electricity they use is generated by fossil fuel. Giving rebates is NOT a sustainable idea if tax payers help pay for the vehicle. If you want an EV, I think that is just wonderful, but don’t expect me to enjoy that waste of tax payer dollars. Additionally, my gas guzzler will be paying for road use taxes while an EV will avoid most or all of this. I might be wrong, but I don’t think a single tax payer dollar was used to help me pay for my EB. No, tax dollars are NOT free, those tax dollars can be much better spent on building roads and bridges that we ALL use.

In addition to what Brian Head Yankee said, there is a break even point where there are less emissions overall (manufacturing and use) from an EV compare to an ICE vehicle. I assume that is why you brought up electricity sources. That break even point will depend on local electricity generation and which particular vehicles you are comparing.

For my electricity generation, WA produces electricity from around 83%-85% renewable energy (66% hydro/8% nucelar/9% other renewables) and 14%-17% from fossil fuels (coal/natural gas). My local power supplier doesn't have coal or natural gas in their portfolio. WA is definitely not the norm, but the trend is the same.

As for subsidies, I would much rather receive them than the oil, natural gas and coal industries. Come on $12,500!!!

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

https://www.eia.gov/state/

 

[EVSport7]

In addition to what Brian Head Yankee said, there is a break even point where there are less emissions overall (manufacturing and use) from an EV compare to an ICE vehicle. I assume that is why you brought up electricity sources. That break even point will depend on local electricity generation and which particular vehicles you are comparing.

For my electricity generation, WA produces electricity from around 83%-85% renewable energy (66% hydro/8% nucelar/9% other renewables) and 14%-17% from fossil fuels (coal/natural gas). My local power supplier doesn't have coal or natural gas in their portfolio. WA is definitely not the norm, but the trend is the same.

As for subsidies, I would much rather receive them than the oil, natural gas and coal industries. Come on $12,500!!!

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

https://www.eia.gov/state/

There was a study by Volvo and a few others that said it's typically around 20-25k miles for around a 70 kWh battery pack before you see that change, and that is just charging off the grid fueled by natural gas

 

[jaspercasidino]

There was a study by Volvo and a few others that said it's typically around 20-25k miles for around a 70 kWh battery pack before you see that change, and that is just charging off the grid fueled by natural gas

Yeah, lower overall emissions should be realized by most EVs within their useful lifetime.

 

[F150ROD]

I will probably be thrown off of this forum for what I am about to write, so be it! I think this whole idea of giving rebates to those buying EV’s is crap!! It is my tax dollars helping someone buy an EV while over 60 % of the electricity they use is generated by fossil fuel. Giving rebates is NOT a sustainable idea if tax payers help pay for the vehicle. If you want an EV, I think that is just wonderful, but don’t expect me to enjoy that waste of tax payer dollars. Additionally, my gas guzzler will be paying for road use taxes while an EV will avoid most or all of this. I might be wrong, but I don’t think a single tax payer dollar was used to help me pay for my EB. No, tax dollars are NOT free, those tax dollars can be much better spent on building roads and bridges that we ALL use.

I agree our tax dollars need to keep going to Oil Subsidies so they can kindly give us free gas during those hard times.

 

[Deleted member 2919]

Charge station expansion are also in all budget plans and endorsed by both sides of the aisle.

Don:
To get mad about using subsidies to encourage EV adoption is kinda silly.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil.

How is it the fault of the electric consumer on how electricity is generated? Do you live off the grid and generate your own electricity? You think it's crap but I doubt that you live off the grid. In fact isn't using electricity to type on this forum a waste of electricity?

If one could step back and objectively analyze the whole tax subsidies topic, they would quickly see that the entire, "well fossil fuel companies get tax breaks, so handing out $7500 to me to buy an EV is no different" argument is ridiculous.

The United States gives tax breaks to oil and gas companies to produce domestic oil and gas for the same reasons it gives handouts to the agricultural industry. It is literally a matter of national security that the USA be able to produce and refine gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc... Just look back to WW2 and educate yourself on what happened to Germany when they lost access to crude oil.

Do you think that in future wars we will power our tanks and jets via tesla super-duper chargers in Yemen or Ukraine?

Suggesting that giving away $7500 to an individual to buy an EV is no different than giving Exxon Mobil several billion to encourage domestic oil and gas production... Is like suggesting that the USA should give me $5 to buy grape nuts and frosted flakes as this is equivalent to giving farmers tax subsidies. It is a freakin silly.

 

[Blainestang]

If one could step back and objectively analyze the whole tax subsidies topic, they would quickly see that the entire, "well fossil fuel companies get tax breaks, so handing out $7500 to me to buy an EV is no different" argument is ridiculous.

The United States gives tax breaks to oil and gas companies to produce domestic oil and gas for the same reasons it gives handouts to the agricultural industry. It is literally a matter of national security that the USA be able to produce and refine gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc... Just look back to WW2 and educate yourself on what happened to Germany when they lost access to crude oil.

Do you think that in future wars we will power our tanks and jets via tesla super-duper chargers in Yemen or Ukraine?

Suggesting that giving away $7500 to an individual to buy an EV is no different than giving Exxon Mobil several billion to encourage domestic oil and gas production... Is like suggesting that the USA should give me $5 to buy grape nuts and frosted flakes as this is equivalent to giving farmers tax subsidies. It is a freakin silly.

I agree with you to some extent, but the reality is that much of the tax credit goes to the manufacturer as well: See Telsa/Chevy for what happens when the credit goes away... the price changes so that the customer still pays about the same amount and the manufacturer just gets less.

Point being, just as we're subsidizing fossil fuel companies because it's in the national interest for domestic production to exist, it's ALSO in the national interest for American companies to lead the way as the world transitions to EVs.

That's not to say I'm in agreement with exactly the method, quantity, etc. of subsidies for either, necessarily, but my point is that the EV credit is ALSO being done with the idea that it's accelerating R&D for EVs in order to help the US lead in that huge market going forward. Fossil fuel subsidies are more nuanced than often presented, and EV subsidies are not just "handing out" money to buyers. It's a manufacturer subsidy substantially, if not primarily.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

If the govt is gonna interfere, I would much rather have them do it with a carrot than a stick. A large EV rebate does move people off of fossil fuel without force. Win -win

 

[superds]

If the govt is gonna interfere, I would much rather have them do it with a carrot than a stick. A large EV rebate does move people off of fossil fuel without force. Win -win

Agree.

We need to ensure the energy independence of our nation. As long as we’re using oil for ICE vehicles, we can only use oil, very few other options. If we switch to electric vehicles we can at least choose how we want to generate electricity, whether it be from coal, nuclear, natural gas turbines, wind, solar, etc.

 

[GreggT]

The federal $7500 rebate program states: "The credit begins to phase out for vehicles at the beginning of the second calendar quarter after the manufacturer has sold 200,000 eligible plug-in electric vehicles".

Fed EV tax credit

Ford is at 126,000. Even if they hit 200,000 sold before our Lightnings arrive next summer, we have an additional 2 quarters to quality. I am confident that I will get the full $7500 as long as I take delivery in 2022. We also get a $1000 charger install rebate.

Rebate or Tax Credit? I believe Tax Credit, BIG difference!

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

No difference really, other than how soon you put the rebate in your pocket. Unused rebate $ carries over if you don't use it in your first tax year. The current Biden infrastructure bills change it to a rebate.

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