White House releases plan to build nationwide network of 500,000 EV chargers

[vandy1981]

The Government loves to FORCE the auto industry to do things… why don’t they FORCE them to standardize on a swappable battery pack for EVs AND THEN sink piles of our tax dollars into building swapping stations?

It's already being done elsewhere. A Chinese car company (NIO) has a swappable battery system. It takes around 5-10 minutes to change the battery and NIO handles battery maintenance should a cell go bad. Tesla piloted the technology several years ago but decided not to bring it to market.

I'm not convinced this is scalable for light vehicles though and won't be necessary as battery tech improves. The rate limiting factor for EVs is the battery pack and you would need to have some multiple of battery packs for a system like this. Not to mention the added maintenance and infrastructure that would be required for battery swap stations.

We're rapidly approaching a world where the average EV will be able to charge 10-80% in under 20 minutes, so there's really not that much of a time benefit for swappable packs. We're already there with the Hyundai Auto Group E-GMP and VW Auto Group J1 platforms and it will continue to get better as battery chemistries improve and the fabled solid state batteries come to market.

I'm not sure the battery maintenance benefits are that important either since all vehicles in the USA have a minimum 8y/100K battery warranty.

Swappable batteries make a lot of sense for HD vehicles like semis, though. I could easily imagine Amazon or UPS having battery swap stations at their distribution hubs.

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[TF1000]

I “get” the whole “go green” thing and I’m glad Elon Musk has shamed and frightened the auto industry into refining the EV.

And I KNOW that EVs aren’t really going to be a viable option for the masses until the “Range Anxiety” issue is addressed.

But…

When my Dewalt battery dies I replace it with a CHARGED battery. I don’t just stop working until it recharges.

You CAN’T tell me that with all the advancements in robotics, car manufacturers CAN’T come up with a swappable “battery pack”.

You pull in with your dead battery, a robot unplugs it, plugs in a charged one in LESS TIME than it takes me to fill my tank with gasoline and you’re on your way.

The Government loves to FORCE the auto industry to do things… why don’t they FORCE them to standardize on a swappable battery pack for EVs AND THEN sink piles of our tax dollars into building swapping stations?

This was actually tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) but the company went out of business

 

[Mr. Flibble]

As the actual stats noted, 25% were charging mostly outside home, down to 16% during pandemic.

Maybe 1% can charge at work on L2, they are rare, but otherwise, charging outside the home is going to be fast DC unless you can cage a ride back and forth to the L2 charger every 10 h hours.

EV Consumer Behavior

You argue that few can charge at work, yet your own link that you just published says otherwise.

The link you just published recommends L3 chargers every 70 miles along highways.

Your own citations recommend using L2 charging and not L3 except for long road trips

 

[EaglesPDX]

Unless there are reliable and inexpensive public charging at places where someone normally goes or workplace charging then I don't believe anyone will like charging away from home.

L2 charges at 25 miles an hour. Just not practical to use stop/charge with L2 if no home charging.

Stop at fast DC charger at the supermarket, even for a 20 minute quick stop and charged for the week.

Fortunately the EV mfgs and charging companies agree and 4-10 x fast DC chargers is the standard.

Interesting that most of the markets have two old L2 chargers out front in addition to the new Tesla or EA charging station. No one at the L2's, fast DC's are full on busy days.

Their business projections are based on EV Consumer Behavior.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

I “get” the whole “go green” thing and I’m glad Elon Musk has shamed and frightened the auto industry into refining the EV.

And I KNOW that EVs aren’t really going to be a viable option for the masses until the “Range Anxiety” issue is addressed.

But…

When my Dewalt battery dies I replace it with a CHARGED battery. I don’t just stop working until it recharges.

You CAN’T tell me that with all the advancements in robotics, car manufacturers CAN’T come up with a swappable “battery pack”.

You pull in with your dead battery, a robot unplugs it, plugs in a charged one in LESS TIME than it takes me to fill my tank with gasoline and you’re on your way.

The Government loves to FORCE the auto industry to do things… why don’t they FORCE them to standardize on a swappable battery pack for EVs AND THEN sink piles of our tax dollars into building swapping stations?

As others have mentioned, this is being done elsewhere. But the truth of the matter is that most people drive less than 30 miles a day. So there is no need for battery swaps.

Realistically, with the technology we have today, if you regularly drive long distances, you should be driving a gas hybrid or diesel.

Battery swaps might make sense for something like long-haul trucks in the future, but at this point in time if we want wider EV adoption, its not really needed.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You argue that few can charge at work,

Which is a fact. One only need look at all the business parks, corporate HQ's, hospitals. We are building a new clinic and financial arguments to the board for EV charging don't work and we have a lot of PHEV/EV's from CEO to CFO to partners to employees and a board that wants to do it.

Over at the hospital, one or two L2 chargers for staffs in the 1,000 range. For the hospital to even consider spending money on more L2 chargers is out of the question even with the incentives in the new bill.

And this is an EV hotspot area.

EV driver behavior and finances and charging basics all point to fast DC charging network to support travel and those with no home charging.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Which is a fact. One only need look at all the business parks, corporate HQ's, hospitals. We are building a new clinic and financial arguments to the board for EV charging don't work and we have a lot of PHEV/EV's from CEO to CFO to partners to employees and a board that wants to do it.

Over at the hospital, one or two L2 chargers for staffs in the 1,000 range. For the hospital to even consider spending money on more L2 chargers is out of the question even with the incentives in the new bill.

And this is an EV hotspot area.

EV driver behavior and finances and charging basics all point to fast DC charging network to support travel and those with no home charging.

You are just picking anecdotes. Your own link about EV Charging from EV Consumer behaviour says that people can and do charge at work, and it is the second most popular charging location after charging at home.

It also says that people perceive that they require an L3 charger before buying an EV car, but it turns out that in real use, they don’t actually need them.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Realistically, with the technology we have today, if you regularly drive long distances, you should be driving a gas hybrid or diesel.

Realistically, with the technology we have today, if you regularly drive long distances, you should be driving an EV.

Certainly works fine for me at TWICE national average and long distance commutes.

Funny how those who do it say it's easy. Those who don't see problems.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You are just picking anecdotes.

Facts on the ground which applies to EVERY corporate HQ, corporate office park, hospital, factory, mall and this in an EV/CARB state. The upscale mall shopping eco REI. Five chargers in a mall lot of 2,000 cars. If you spent HOURS there charging, you'd get 50-75 miles. All five of you.

Anecdotes that match the facts of EV driver behavior, fast DC.

Anecdotes that match the facts of charging company billion dollar investments, fast DC

Anecdotes that match the facts of EV mfg million dollar investments in the charging companies, fast DC.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Realistically, with the technology we have today, if you regularly drive long distances, you should be driving an EV.

Certainly works fine for me at TWICE national average and long distance commutes.

Funny how those who do it say it's easy. Those who don't see problems.

You are an outlier.

The simple fact of the matter is that you can only do this if you value your time poorly.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Facts on the ground which applies to EVERY corporate HQ, corporate office park, hospital, factory, mall and this in an EV/CARB state. The upscale mall shopping eco REI. Five chargers in a mall lot of 2,000 cars. If you spent HOURS there charging, you'd get 50-75 miles. All five of you.

Anecdotes that match the facts of EV driver behavior, fast DC.

Anecdotes that match the facts of charging company billion dollar investments, fast DC

Anecdotes that match the facts of EV mfg million dollar investments in the charging companies, fast DC.

You keep moving the goalposts.

You post links that supposedly support your argument, but the actual articles refute your arguments.

The simple fact of the matter is, that you personally want an EV. Thats fine. I have one too, and lots of the people on this forum clearly do too.

Most people want to charge at home, and not be hassled with charge times. You are the outlier here. Not everyone has the spare time to do this, it is a bad value proposition.

If you want to do that, great! But building out a network to have everyone adopt inconvenient charging is not a viable plan for everyone else.

You do you, but don’t propose that everyone wants to copy your methods.

 

[UNIKRN150]

As others have mentioned, this is being done elsewhere. But the truth of the matter is that most people drive less than 30 miles a day. So there is no need for battery swaps.

Realistically, with the technology we have today, if you regularly drive long distances, you should be driving a gas hybrid or diesel.

Battery swaps might make sense for something like long-haul trucks in the future, but at this point in time if we want wider EV adoption, its not really needed.

Yeah but "range anxiety" is an emotional thing. It's more "perception" than reality for the very reasons you lay out.

But it's "real" and it's a problem.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You are an outlier.

Leading edge.

25% of EV owners based on the facts.

As price of EV's goes down and charging speed goes up (the new Kia and Hyundai's are 800V), makes it easier and easier for the 50% with no home charging and the 97% with no work charging to own an EV.

As we see from facts, it can be done today in the right area with good fast DC coverage.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You keep moving the goalposts.

Because I keep replying to your new complaints after debunking your previous claims with facts and links. Keeps me busy but educational.

When you said 85% had home charging in Norway, actually looked it up and it was 95%.

When you said no fast DC charging in Norway, actually looked it up and it was 50:1 ratio, twice that of US with reliable EV tester, Nyland, demonstrating it with video after video on top of the stats.

Hmmm.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Yeah but "range anxiety" is an emotional thing. It's more "perception" than reality for the very reasons you lay out.

But it's "real" and it's a problem.

Oh, absolutely. It is a real thing, had it myself after buying our EV.

However, what happens is that people see others with EVs and begin to ask questions. Then they get answers, and they start adopting EVs themselves.

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