Invited After Transferring to ZEV State Dealer

[jfried]

Disagree.

The problem with forums is that people are talking in an empty room and no one is listening. The 99% of customers that have no clue what's going on also have no clue what ADM is, nor what Farley said. No, they aren't thinking about it at all, but here in this echo chamber you and we might be.

The reality is that the majority of consumers are clueless.

The reality is that many of them aren't very smart either.

Ford, and other car makers, can do this day in and day out and see no impact. Sure, Bob from this forum might get pissed and move to another brand, but Jerry will leave that brand for Ford.

There is no such thing as "widely reported" today. It's all social media noise, and most tune it out or are blissfully unaware.

Quoted for Truth.

This forum represents a very small sect of the most enthusiastic people who are also tech-people. The average person who reserved a lightning knows that there were somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 reservations. They'll start seeing some on the road come July or August, and if they had reserved in the first couple of days, will only at that point think "it's should be my turn to get one soon", and they'll probably get an invite within a month or two after that.

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[EVBill]

Quoted for Truth.

This forum represents a very small sect of the most enthusiastic people who are also tech-people. The average person who reserved a lightning knows that there were somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 reservations. They'll start seeing some on the road come July or August, and if they had reserved in the first couple of days, will only at that point think "it's should be my turn to get one soon", and they'll probably get an invite within a month or two after that.

I respectfully disagree with this generalization. Before COVID and the ensuing vehicle shortages due to supply disruption of critical electrical components, the average person was very aware of being able to find the selling prices of vehicles from online sources so that they did not overpay for a vehicle. The average consumer right now cannot go out and buy a new X Box or Playstation gaming system or a high end video graphics card due to high demand and scarce availability of components. Many electrical repair parts for repair of automobiles are on back order for weeks or months (just took two months to get a replacement Battery Control Module for my 2017 Volt that was an item covered by warranty).

Dealerships today are seeing something that they have not seen in the last 25-30 years in that the demand for vehicles is greater than the supply for a large number of models out there. Two years ago, expect for extreme limited production run vehicles the consumer was typically paying thousands under MSRP without any effort due to readily available information on the internet. Some dealerships are being as fair as possible to customers in not changing their operating practices while others are taking it as an opportunity to pad their wallets just like the jerks that write bots to purchase X Boxes and Playstations as soon as they are released online and immediately put them up for resale on Ebay for 50% more than they paid for them. There will always be fools out there willing to pay way more than they should for an item, but fortunately there are some out there that are not as motivated by greed like dealerships charging $20k AGM on a vehicle that is already $20k higher than an ICE vehicle with the same level of options.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Quoted for Truth.

This forum represents a very small sect of the most enthusiastic people who are also tech-people. The average person who reserved a lightning knows that there were somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 reservations. They'll start seeing some on the road come July or August, and if they had reserved in the first couple of days, will only at that point think "it's should be my turn to get one soon", and they'll probably get an invite within a month or two after that.

Either that, or a lot of people will see them in person this summer and go “hey, I reserved in October, almost a year ago, where’s my truck?” And everything we’re reading on here now will repeat itself then. Stay tuned and stock up on the popcorn!

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Disagree.

The problem with forums is that people are talking in an empty room and no one is listening. The 99% of customers that have no clue what's going on also have no clue what ADM is, nor what Farley said. No, they aren't thinking about it at all, but here in this echo chamber you and we might be.

The reality is that the majority of consumers are clueless.

The reality is that many of them aren't very smart either.

Ford, and other car makers, can do this day in and day out and see no impact. Sure, Bob from this forum might get pissed and move to another brand, but Jerry will leave that brand for Ford.

There is no such thing as "widely reported" today. It's all social media noise, and most tune it out or are blissfully unaware.

Disagree with your last point. Yes, there’s way too many people that are too lazy or lack the reading comprehension to get real news on a real news site and instead believe everything on FB, but luckily they’re still just a small minority.

 

[vandy1981]

I get that prioritization is frustrating if you don't didn't have a relationship with a dealer; but it is important that Ford buyers are accustomed to working with dealers, and dealers, with the relationships they build with customers, are integral to getting the rest of the ford lineup sold.

Ford isn't going to win the EV transition by exclusively catering to their existing customers. They will be the first to manufacture an electric truck at meaningful scale and have an opportunity to gain conquest customers from Tesla, Rivian and the other legacy truck makers that will carry their business forward.

The dealer prioritization and the publicity about the dealer pay-for-play schemes it engendered turned off a lot of those conquest customers and even some repeat Ford customers like myself.

I think it's a mistake to assume that people want to spend the time and energy to form a relationship with a salesman just so they have a chance to buy a commodity like a car every 2-5 years.

I'd much rather do the research on my own, take a test drive at a storefront facilitated by a non-commissioned product rep (or even better, a drop-off process like Polestar uses). I'd also prefer to purchase at MSRP online and skip all of the dealership B.S. Not to mention that a lot of dealers around me use good ol' boy business practices that don't work great for some segments of the population.

 

[RickLightning]

Disagree with your last point. Yes, there’s way too many people that are too lazy or lack the reading comprehension to get real news on a real news site and instead believe everything on FB, but luckily they’re still just a small minority.

No, they're the majority. Clueless is an American pastime.

 

[jfried]

Ford isn't going to win the EV transition by exclusively catering to their existing customers. They will be the first to manufacture an electric truck at meaningful scale and have an opportunity to gain conquest customers from Tesla, Rivian and the other legacy truck makers that will carry their business forward.

The dealer prioritization and the publicity about the dealer pay-for-play schemes it engendered turned off a lot of those conquest customers and even some repeat Ford customers like myself.

I think it's a mistake to assume that people want to spend the time and energy to form a relationship with a salesman just so they have a chance to buy a commodity like a car every 2-5 years.

I'd much rather do the research on my own, take a test drive at a storefront facilitated by a non-commissioned product rep (or even better, a drop-off process like Polestar uses). I'd also prefer to purchase at MSRP online and skip all of the dealership B.S. Not to mention that a lot of dealers around me use good ol' boy business practices that don't work great for some segments of the population.

It absolutely is a mistake to assume that EVERYONE wants to do that. However, it is equally a mistake to assume that everyone wants to buy directly from the manufacturer a la tesla model.

The reality is, car buyers are a mixed bag and no one individual can represent all of them. Yes, it is certainly trending towards more and more customers preferring the "tesla model".... but that's nowhere near 100%. The reality is that the vast, vast majority of cars in the US are still sold using the dealer model. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm gonna suggest it's still around 90%.

This transition has also certainly been accelerated by the chip shortages, with so many more vehicles being transacted at or above MSRP versus below. Rewind 2 years when dealer lots were full and anyone with half decent negotiating ability could pay below MSRP -- the amount of people who "preferred" the Tesla model would be a fraction of what it is today. We may still see a rebound once manufacturing catches up to demand.

Enthusiasts (which is a category that 100% of this forum falls into) know every nook, cranny, and detail about a car, and often, they want to purchase online at MSRP (especially in an environment of above-MSRP prices); especially if they're younger as younger people tend to be less apt at negotiating. There's many more car buyers who need to meet X criteria, and fit into a monthly budget of Y.

Ultimately, Ford is going to have a really good chance at "winning" the EV game by virtue of the products they're putting out. They are seemingly going to beat Chevy & Chrysler to the pickup game by about 2 years. They operate at a scale (largely because of their dealership network) much, much larger than Rivian or any of the other new startups. This is allowing them to put out products that are compelling (like the Lightning), but priced for and more appealing to the masses (unlike the Rivian).

Obviously, they're not going to "win" the game solely on the backs of their existing customers (although that will certainly give them a massive head start).... but it is important to remember that just because Ford wants to win the EV game, doesn't mean they should ignore the ICE game, or the customers who are used to buying, and will continue to buy Ford ICE vehicles.

I mentioned it in an earlier post. To buy a new Ferrari, you've gotta buy a used one. To buy a new v12 ferrari, you've probably had to have purchased at least a couple v8s. To buy a hero car (Enzo, Laferrari, etc.), you've probably had to have purchased a couple of v12s. The BS that some dealers are putting around the "hero vehicles" needs to stop -- chaning deals, hidden fees, etc....

But, having "cachet" behind your hero vehicles, where Ford rewards the people who buy it's everyday cars, rather than the people with the fastest fingers, isn't always the worst thing for a company that still has a lot of cars playing in very competitive marketplaces.

For the guy who gets the Lightning by calling his dealer, he will probably think of Ford first when he needs to buy something in the Explorer/Grand Cherokee/Rav4 space. I'm sure Ford pissed off a lot of people with the Ford GT allocation process; as there were countless people who could come up with half a million to buy one of these things, to whom Ford said no thanks. What it did do is plant seeds in these high-net worth individuals minds that every once in a while, Ford's going to come up with something really cool, and how many Ford's youve purchased in the past will matter when it comes time to figuring out who gets one.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I don't believe Ford ever said we are going in strict order of reservations.

Then it is not a reservation since it has little to no relation to getting the vehicle. Most mfgs seem to go by the reservations they create (Tesla did though, Ford did with MachE).

Had Ford called it a "Marketing tool to gauge interest and public relations. No relation to delivery", I would not have made a reservation knowing it was meaningless.

I'll let it play out to see if I can gain some advantage from it and help out co-worker who wants it though I would not be surprised that his 198,000 "reservation" will be filled before my 19,000.

There is a reason it is called "honoring a reservation".

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Ford=|=Ferrari, vastly. Your transparent, consistent, and ultimately pointless gaslighting really isn’t going to convince anybody that Ford was right to let people skip ahead in line through the prioritization process. Basic fairness.

 

[jfried]

Then it is not a reservation since it has little to no relation to getting the vehicle. Most mfgs seem to go by the reservations they create (Tesla did though, Ford did with MachE).

Had Ford called it a "Marketing tool to gauge interest and public relations. No relation to delivery", I would not have made a reservation knowing it was meaningless.

I'll let it play out to see if I can gain some advantage from it and help out co-worker who wants it though I would not be surprised that his 198,000 "reservation" will be filled before my 19,000.

There is a reason it is called "honoring a reservation".

Are you 100% sure about the bolded? Admittedly, I didn't follow the MME process in any sort of great detail. Or is this just your obeservation from seeing the vehicles at your dealership come in?

A reservation does not necessarily mean "this is the order we're going to get one for you". It simply means you want to put your name in for one, and that in the ideal case, you'll be offered to buy / order one before you can walk into a dealership and place an order.

That being said, your "reservation order" does absolutely impact the order in which you'll get the car. It's just not the only factor like you may have wanted.

 

[jfried]

Ford=|=Ferrari, vastly. Your transparent, consistent, and ultimately pointless gaslighting really isn’t going to convince anybody that Ford was right to let people skip ahead in line through the prioritization process. Basic fairness.

Ford will never be "right" in the eyes of somebody who felt entitled to one of the first ones by virtue of having the fastest fingers.

As I've mentioned in this thread, you could argue that it would be wholly unfair to reward these "fast-fingered" people over the tried and true loyal customers that Ford has had over the last however many years. Fairness can be achieved in many ways -- all depending on your perspective.

Ask yourself, why is it "fair" to reward the fastest fingers?

When you want to buy concert tickets, first-come first serve means the scalpers get all the tickets as they either have bots, or guys in india on the second the tickets go on sale.... is that fair?

No, Ford isn't Ferrari; but if Ford can use it's hero vehicles to try prop up the rest of the brand, why shouldn't they? Why not put an F150 Lighting Platinum in the hands of somebody that is happy to pay over MSRP for it. They've obviously got the money, and if they have a good experience, may buy more Fords for their businesses.

Why produce a high number of the pro models to start, when these are obviously pretty-low margin, and for which the vision is to sell them in bulk to businesses that the person making the decision is probably not the person driving the truck. Get the president of the company into a platinum so he sees how great it it is. If it's a big fleet customer, get them a couple of Pros for them to trial.

Heck, if we hit back to the purpose of this thread, why not disproportionately allocate vehicles to ZEV states? Ford has a legal requirement to transition to EVs in this state. The more people see them on the road, the more they're likely to gear up and buy one. It honestly wouldn't suprise me to see people who got ZEV-state invitations, and then order through a non-ZEV state, get their actual production pushed back so that Ford can achieve their ZEV targets.

 

[EaglesPDX]

As I've mentioned in this thread, you could argue that it would be wholly unfair to reward these "fast-fingered" people over the tried and true loyal customers that Ford has had over the last however many years.

Then don't have reservations. It is that simple. It's either a reservation or not.

Just made $1k reservation on Rivian which will be $10k cheaper and which...shocker...delivers in reservation order. Be interesting to see how Ford does vs. Rivian.

 

[jfried]

Then don't have reservations. It is that simple. It's either a reservation or not.

Just made $1k reservation on Rivian which will be $10k cheaper and which...shocker...delivers in reservation order. Be interesting to see how Ford does vs. Rivian.

A reservation DOES NOT have to be in the order that it was received. That's up to the entity administering the reservations. All it does is say "you want one", and begin the process of giving you some progress towards one.

Heck, use some practicality for a moment... the Ford reservation was $100 fully refundable. It's about as non-committal as possible -- .1% of the eventual purchase price of the truck. Why should they be beholden to people that made such small commitments, with such rigidity?

 

[EaglesPDX]

A reservation DOES NOT have to be in the order that it was received.

A reservation does...ergo the term RESERVE.

Rivian is 20" shorter with same tow capacity so that's another plus.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Ford will never be "right" in the eyes of somebody who felt entitled to one of the first ones by virtue of having the fastest fingers.

As I've mentioned in this thread, you could argue that it would be wholly unfair to reward these "fast-fingered" people over the tried and true loyal customers that Ford has had over the last however many years. Fairness can be achieved in many ways -- all depending on your perspective.

Ask yourself, why is it "fair" to reward the fastest fingers?

When you want to buy concert tickets, first-come first serve means the scalpers get all the tickets as they either have bots, or guys in india on the second the tickets go on sale.... is that fair?

No, Ford isn't Ferrari; but if Ford can use it's hero vehicles to try prop up the rest of the brand, why shouldn't they? Why not put an F150 Lighting Platinum in the hands of somebody that is happy to pay over MSRP for it. They've obviously got the money, and if they have a good experience, may buy more Fords for their businesses.

Why produce a high number of the pro models to start, when these are obviously pretty-low margin, and for which the vision is to sell them in bulk to businesses that the person making the decision is probably not the person driving the truck. Get the president of the company into a platinum so he sees how great it it is. If it's a big fleet customer, get them a couple of Pros for them to trial.

Heck, if we hit back to the purpose of this thread, why not disproportionately allocate vehicles to ZEV states? Ford has a legal requirement to transition to EVs in this state. The more people see them on the road, the more they're likely to gear up and buy one. It honestly wouldn't suprise me to see people who got ZEV-state invitations, and then order through a non-ZEV state, get their actual production pushed back so that Ford can achieve their ZEV targets.

You would have a point if Ford had announced from the get go that reservation order was just one of several inputs to convert to order. Or if they had said, on 5/19, that they would later allow people with lots of prior purchases to skip line. That would’ve given everyone 7months to spend every last penny on Ford vehicles, leveling the playing field. According to you everyone that would’ve spent the money would’ve thus built a warm and cozy relationship with the dealer, and thus would’ve received a priority slot and an early invite.
But of course none of this happened because Ford was simply unprepared for the huge demand for the Lightning and only made these changes to the process after dealerships prodded them into it.
As to your equivocating about the definition of fairness: Fairness might not be easily defined, but its absence is noticed immediately. Hence all the valid complaints on this forum. Heck, any five year old will tell you that it’s not fair to skip line. No matter how much money you’ve previously spent.

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