Invited After Transferring to ZEV State Dealer

[Deleted member 9341]

You are obviously a Tesla enthusiast and I am glad you have a car and brand you enjoy. However, you are missing the mark on reality here. I put a reservation down for a Cybertruck in November 2019, at which time Tesla said the Cybertruck would be available in late 2021. Now the Cybertruck is pushed back to 2023 and the most affordable version has been cancelled before anyone has had a chance to buy it. How is this honesty? How is this better than Ford's rollout?

In May 2021, a year and a half after I placed my Cybertruck preorder, I put down an order on a F-150 Lightning and a Rivian R1T. Tesla made me realize I wanted an electric truck, so now I decided I'll get the first one available to me since Tesla was obviously lagging behind their original plan.

My Ford dealer recently said I'm #5 in line and should be getting a 2022 Lightning, then I placed a wave 2 XLT order. Since the 4.5' bed in the Rivian was something I never liked, I cancelled my Rivian order. The R1T is more of a lifestyle vehicle than functional (to me), so Ford won me over with a traditional truck. Additionally I had no indication my Rivian would be ready before my Lightning.

I own a Tesla and love it. It doesn't change the fact that my truck reservation with them 18 months prior to my Cybertruck is at least a year behind my Lightning. Based on this fact alone, I'd say Ford is doing pretty damn good.

I highly doubt we’ll ever see a cybertruck (at least as presented). And I would agree the Rivian is essentially a lifestyle vehicle, basically a family SUV with the back open. Wise to make the move you did if you need an actual full-sized truck

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[ExCivilian]

Of course, you want there to be a line that everyone has to wait in, because that's what's best for you. That doesn't mean there should be, and it doesn't mean that there is one in the exact fashion you want it. Ford's doing what it thinks is best for the company. I haven't seen a single business-driven reason as to why certain customers shouldn't be prioritized.

This is an extreme outlier position.

In the context of US culture, it's universally understood that someone paying more money to jump to the head of a line that has already started forming is fundamentally unfair.

Sure, we also live in a culture that finds it perfectly acceptable for someone to throw $100K down on concert ticket #1. BUT never has it been acceptable for that person to pay $100K to sit in the concert ticket #1's seat and push #1 to #2. It's not true for concert tickets, it's not true for heart transplants, and it's not true for these F150 "reservations."

Whether allowing this produces lasting damage to the brand remains to be seen, but your position in this thread feigning surprise at people's frustration is beyond disingenuous.

 

[EaglesPDX]

My Ford dealer recently said I'm #5 in line and should be getting a 2022 Lightning, then I placed a wave 2 XLT order. Since the 4.5' bed in the Rivian was something I never liked, I cancelled my Rivian order.

Ford dealer told me I'm 35/25 and '24 so I ordered a Rivian.

Rivian is more of a lifestyle choide

Same tow and payload as F150EV and a bit more range so not sure why you'd say that. It's a bit shorter but $10k less and comes with a $600 bed cover. I wanted to give Ford a boost for its commitment to EV's and I probably did by giving them that early order PR boost that got their "preferred customers" jumping the line. So Mission Accomplished there. Now I get to give Rivian a boost. Save $10k on the Rivian and maybe make $10k flipping the F150 in '24.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You are obviously a Tesla enthusiast

Wonder why I tried to buy an F150EV and failing that put $1k down on a Rivian?

 

[rdr854]

No system is perfect.... but I'd like to put myself in your shoes for a moment... assuming you've bought all 10 (or most) from the same dealership, and didn't give them a complete price beat-down on every one.

Let's say you reserved a lightning a week or two after the reveal... would you be happy if upon calling your Ford Dealer to try and accelerate your lightning build, they told you there was absolutely nothing you can do?

I bought a total of 11 from the same dealership and got what I considered fair deals. I was 50 out of 200 reservations at that dealership and did not even consider asking for prioritization. My expectation when I made the reservation was MY2023 since I was not an evening of the reveal reservation. I have a second reservation (deliberately made late) which I want for MY2024 or MY2025 in case there are issues with the first truck.

I do think that selling places in line to the highest bidder is wrong as well as a dealership prioritizing all of its interested management and employees ahead of customers.

 

[jfried]

This is an extreme outlier position.

In the context of US culture, it's universally understood that someone paying more money to jump to the head of a line that has already started forming is fundamentally unfair.

Sure, we also live in a culture that finds it perfectly acceptable for someone to throw $100K down on concert ticket #1. BUT never has it been acceptable for that person to pay $100K to sit in the concert ticket #1's seat and push #1 to #2. It's not true for concert tickets, it's not true for heart transplants, and it's not true for these F150 "reservations."

Whether allowing this produces lasting damage to the brand remains to be seen, but your position in this thread feigning surprise at people's frustration is beyond disingenuous.

Fairness can be percieved in many different ways. A guy who's really good with a computer or a lot of time on their hands to read rumours, has an "unfair advantage" in getting the truck over the general population. A guy who has a longstanding relationship with a Ford dealer has an "unfair advantage" in getting the truck over the general population.

I'm not at all surprised at people's frustration... everyone out there is self interested. This forum is filled with people that have time on their hands and are good with a computer, and are likely to be right on the be the ones who were first to order. What suprises me, is the sense of entitlement & anger after explaining why Ford does and did need to do "prioritizations".

The concept that just because Ford accepted reservations -- that they should be tied to the exact order people placed them at -- is simply wrong. Never once did they say at the time of accepting the reservation that they were going to go in chronological order. All the reservation meant, was that you wanted one, and one could have presumed that as a reservation holder, you'll have a greater /earlier opportunity to get one than the general public.

The very problem is that the people who had reserved early assumed reservation meant "line" in the strict sense. It didn't. Heck, it's not like the reservation process was all that "foreign".... the Bronco had gone through a similar process a little bit less than a ear earlier. IIRC, they gave 50% to reservation holders in rough sequence amongst the dealer, and 50% to dealers to sell to whomever they want.

 

[ExCivilian]

I'm not interested in debating the nuances of your nonsensical argument.

The bottom line is that, in US culture at least, it's not acceptable behavior to "cut" in a line that has already formed by spending money.

It's as nonsensical as your argument that reserving a vehicle is not synonymous with a line. If one isn't securing a place in line with one's reservation there is no point to the reservation. Ford wasn't selling interest checks.

Regardless, you've stated your position clearly and are simply repeating yourself at this point. There is no reason to continue repeating yourself other than being a contrarian.

 

[jfried]

I bought a total of 11 from the same dealership and got what I considered fair deals. I was 50 out of 200 reservations at that dealership and did not even consider asking for prioritization. My expectation when I made the reservation was MY2023 since I was not an evening of the reveal reservation. I have a second reservation (deliberately made late) which I want for MY2024 or MY2025 in case there are issues with the first truck.

I do think that selling places in line to the highest bidder is wrong as well as a dealership prioritizing all of its interested management and employees ahead of customers.

I completely agree with that.

On the "auctioning" of places in line, it just "cheapens" the experience IMO; and "feels like" bribery knowing full well that every cent over MSRP is going straight into the dealer's pocket. It's also not a "proper" auction with the glitz, glam, lights, excitement... it's you making a deal with 1 guy. I believe that behaviour was something that Ford corporate warned against.

Even if it's not an auction, and just a "fixed fee" ($5000 for a prioritzation, say) -- it just doesn't leave you with a great feeling. A good dealer would do something like look at what the person has spent in the last 10 years, and do it based on that.

Can someone confirm for me, when dealers prioritized, could they select 1, 2, 3, etc... or was it just they pick their "group" of reservation holders, and it went in chronological order for those?

With respect to dealer employees / managers buying the car -- I can see the motivation for it, wanting the people selling the car to be able to explain living with it, but do agree that it doesn't really serve any corporate good. The better solution would obviously be for there to be a demo vehicle, but I guess it's the kind of thing where for the first ~6 months, they're not really going to be "Trying" to add more orders/reservations than what they've got, so what's the purpose in keeping 2300 of them on the lots accumulating milage?

One of the challenges with so many people involved in such a large company.

 

[jfried]

I'm not interested in debating the nuances of your nonsensical argument.

The bottom line is that, in US culture at least, it's not acceptable behavior to "cut" in a line that has already formed by spending money.

It's as nonsensical as your argument that reserving a vehicle is not synonymous with a line. If one isn't securing a place in line with one's reservation there is no point to the reservation. Ford wasn't selling interest checks.

Regardless, you've stated your position clearly and are simply repeating yourself at this point. There is no reason to continue repeating yourself other than being a contrarian.

It is always more complicated than that when purchasing a vehicle; at least with Ford. To the average outsider, it may seem like a reservation list is a simple line but nobody on this forum is "an average outsider" because of the information that is available here.

Heck, I placed an order for a Platinum truck 2 weeks ago, with a real (not $100), firm deposit. Still no VIN. I believe there are people on the forum that placed their order after me, that got a VIN. There will be people at my dealership who place an order after me, that get a vin first.

17 years ago, I placed an order for the 2005 Mustang on the day the order banks opened in Canada. I brought in the order guide because the dealership hadn't even seen it, yet mine wasn't the first one I saw on the road.

There are also countless examples of "cutting the line" in everyday society. Go to an airport and watch how quickly that TSA PreCheck line moves. Flying business? there's sometimes a separate line for that too. Heck, some airports will let you bypass lines if you simply show them the right kind of credit card.

Yes, it's "poor form" to walk up to a line give a guy some cash, and cut in... but people get treated differently with respect to lineups for countless, potentially unrelated reasons. It's often because they've laid the ground work (like in this intended case, having bought Ford vehicles) to be given prerential treatment. As long as it's not "completely transactional" $$$ for your spot in line, people generally don't have a problem with it.

Concert tickets another great example. How many "exclusive presales" happen with the average concert? You've got one for Amex card holders, another for the fan club that you've gotta pay $50 to be a member of... etc. If not for all those presales, the average joe would have a much better chance of scoring tickets when he logs onto the general sale at 10:03am. Some ticketing platforms I believe will randomize everyone who logs in, in advance as well, so as to not give an unfair advantage to the people who stayed up all night before to be "1st in line".

 

[ExCivilian]

As long as it's not "completely transactional" $$$ for your spot in line, people generally don't have a problem with it.

That's the issue people are having with it.

You just posted in your previous response that you don't fully understand the reservation or prioritization process. You also have an unstated premise differentiating between these "preferred" customers and so-called "online" customers.

The problem with your premise is that there are no face-to-face only preferred customers. Every preferred customer also has to have had an online reservation. A dealership was given a certain amount of prioritization slots based on their historical sales/allotments. They then were able to create a list from the reservation holders and place them in whatever order they wanted. They then submitted that list to Ford.

If this was simply a reservation system with an additional friends/family system alongside the fleet programs, there would be less frustration. Notice that even when it became clear Ford only allotted some silly few Pros for retail customers no one is really squeaking about how the fleet orders are a completely different "line." Sure, people are saying they'd feel slighted by Ford's fast and loose with what they were offering reservation holders but I haven't seen that transform into anger directed at fleet orders.

This is a scenario where Ford allowed everyone to reserve a place in some form of a line. Dealerships pushed back on Ford and said they wanted prioritization slots. They were given those which were then sold off to the highest bidder. I don't know if it was all, most, or just a few but the fact it happened at all is bad business if for not other reason than optics.

And the thing is...even Ford seems to be aware of this, which is why they keep releasing statements warning dealerships not to screw with reservation holders.

 

[jfried]

That's the issue people are having with it.

You just posted in your previous response that you don't fully understand the reservation or prioritization process. You also have an unstated premise differentiating between these "preferred" customers and so-called "online" customers.

The problem with your premise is that there are no face-to-face only preferred customers. Every preferred customer also has to have had an online reservation. A dealership was given a certain amount of prioritization slots based on their historical sales/allotments. They then were able to create a list from the reservation holders and place them in whatever order they wanted. They then submitted that list to Ford.

If this was simply a reservation system with an additional friends/family system alongside the fleet programs, there would be less frustration. Notice that even when it became clear Ford only allotted some silly few Pros for retail customers no one is really squeaking about how the fleet orders are a completely different "line." Sure, people are saying they'd feel slighted by Ford's fast and loose with what they were offering reservation holders but I haven't seen that transform into anger directed at fleet orders.

This is a scenario where Ford allowed everyone to reserve a place in some form of a line. Dealerships pushed back on Ford and said they wanted prioritization slots. They were given those which were then sold off to the highest bidder. I don't know if it was all, most, or just a few but the fact it happened at all is bad business if for not other reason than optics.

And the thing is...even Ford seems to be aware of this, which is why they keep releasing statements warning dealerships not to screw with reservation holders.

Differentiating between "online" customers and "relationship" customers is a perfectly valid thing to do, despite the fact that "relationship" customers did have to complete a step or two online. Ultimately, from a DEALER/MFG perspective, one way to categorize car buyers is by approach to the deal.

You've got a segment of the population that is likely dealer-agnostic, maybe event brand agnostic. They're probably going to go online, find the best possible deal, possibly visit multiple dealerships of the same brand to get the best deal, and when it comes to the next car, do the exact same. The people who buy from Granger Ford, yet are nowhere near Iowa or potentially have never been to Iowa, are a great example of this.

You've got another segment of the population, the more "old school". When they want a new car, as long as they were reasonably happy with the experience of their old car, are going to go to the same place. They may not know what invoice is going into the deal -- as long as they get something less than MSRP, or something less than what they believe "everyone else" is paying, they're happy. They may have done some online research, but they're not necessarily going to use the internet to get every last cent out of the deal.

Obviously, this is applying 2 very generic buckets to a wide array of car buyers, so not exact, but it is useful to differentiate. That second group is certainly shrinking in size compared to the first, and it is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy as dealers get conditioned to use sneakier/more aggressive ways to make money dealing with so many of these "online" buyers... but the second group does still exist, and is very valuable for Ford.

With respect to the process, again you've accused "dealer pushback" for being the reason -- yet you are obviously not a Ford employee who were privvy to discussions of how the inner workings the system should work. You've implied that ford "caved" to dealer pushback. Put yourself in Ford's shoes, why would they do something that they didn't feel was right just because dealers said so???

I'd point at the Bronco process -- IIRC, 50% of vehicles were for dealers or stock / demos, and 50% reervation holders, with I believe a rule that at least 60% had to be sold to people on the reservation list. Obviously, that didn't work great with a bunch of vehicles still sitting on lots with ADM. At the time that the lightning was announced, Ford probably didn't have a concrete plan as to how the reservation list would relate to production order. But, I'm fairly confident that the ability to get early vehicles into the hands of high-value customers in some fashion was always part of the plan.

Was dealers auctioning off slots bad for business? yes, absolutely, that's why Ford said to put a stop to it.... but just because some dealers did that, doesn't mean that Ford does not want to empower its dealers to take care of loyal customers.

 

[TNLightning]

“I spent $xxx,xxx here in the last 30 years! I deserve ‘priority’ treatment!”, said Karen to the Manager. “But I reserved first!”, said Chad to Twitter.

But none of this is the customers fault, neither Karen nor Chad.

Ford was not clear about the reservation time stamp versus ZEV state allocation versus dealer allocation versus priority list versus ADM. We’re only reverse engineering it because of social connections in forums like these.

We’d all like for it to be one way, our way. Ford and the dealers are the same. Ford tried to add some balance but it left many unhappy in every sphere, except at Ford corporate.

Priority 1, Ford wants to make more money in ZEV states and with Priority Dealers, .

Priority 2, Dealers want to make more money with ADM and Priority Customers, .

Priority 3, reservation holders, new & non-priority, (the leftovers).

Priority 4, non-reservation customers, (SOL).

But like many compromises, it just leaves everyone unsatisfied except for the lucky ones whose favor it worked out in.

And, I think the metaphorical “black-eye” for Ford is that their priorities were inadvertently revealed and their priority is NOT the Lightning customer. It’s Ford corporate & the dealers.

(insert: “But it’s a business. The point is to make money.” reply).

Yes. And our market is purported to run on customer demand and satisfaction. This process prioritizes neither, which will work in the short-term and with highly motivated / captivated buyers with means.

But there are masses of other customers watching who may remind Ford about the demand side of the equation when market supply increases from Chevy, Tesla, Rivian, Toyota, etc. Or maybe not.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

“I spent $xxx,xxx here in the last 30 years! I deserve ‘priority’ treatment!”, said Karen to the Manager. “But I reserved first!”, said Chad to Twitter.

But none of this is the customers fault, neither Karen nor Chad.

Ford was not clear about the reservation time stamp versus ZEV state allocation versus dealer allocation versus priority list versus ADM. We’re only reverse engineering it because of social connections in forums like these.

We’d all like for it to be one way, our way. Ford and the dealers are the same. Ford tried to add some balance but it left many unhappy in every sphere, except at Ford corporate.

Priority 1, Ford wants to make more money in ZEV states and with Priority Dealers, .

Priority 2, Dealers want to make more money with ADM and Priority Customers, .

Priority 3, reservation holders, new & non-priority, (the leftovers).

But like many compromises, it just leaves everyone unsatisfied except for the lucky ones whose favor it worked out in.

And, I think the metaphorical “black-eye” for Ford is that their priorities were inadvertently revealed and their priority is NOT the Lightning customer. It’s Ford corporate & the dealers.

(insert: “But it’s a business. The point is to make money.” reply).

Yes. And our market is purported to run on customer demand and satisfaction. This process prioritizes neither, which will work in the short-term and with highly motivated / captivated buyers with means.

But there are masses of other customers watching who may remind Ford about the demand side of the equation when market supply increases from Chevy, Tesla, Rivian, Toyota, etc. Or maybe not.

I think you summed it up perfectly.

 

[JLee]

where did you move to? my nj dealer haa been non responsive

If it's helpful, I ended up moving to Mahwah Ford in NJ. I called first to verify they aren't charging ADM and then placed my order after transferring - they appear to have accepted my wave 3 invite at MSRP.

 

[maverick92]

If it's helpful, I ended up moving to Mahwah Ford in NJ. I called first to verify they aren't charging ADM and then placed my order after transferring - they appear to have accepted my wave 3 invite at MSRP.

Mahwah Ford was my back-up, but I ended up going with Maplecrest Ford since they are a little closer to me.

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