Coming Soon: Siemens Product Avoiding Panel Upgrades (in Q1 2023?)

[FlasherZ]

I've talked to a few inspectors and power company folks about these devices. Bottom line is that they don't quite know what to think of them yet. I think their conclusion is that the company making them is doing all kinds of great marketing, but the codes and power company regulations aren't ready for them (yet).

In particular, NEC 230.70 requires that "means shall be provided to disconnect ALL ungrounded conductors in a building or other structure from the service conductors", NEC 230.71(B) requires a disconnect to be in an enclosure, panelboard, switchboard, or switchgear, and NEC 230.72(A) requires that all disconnects must be co-located. So to use this collar, you are going to have to run the conductors into the building and co-locate a disconnect with all your other panels.

In talking with my co-op and a few engineers from the local investor-owned utility, they are concerned about them because it adds another potential problem to the meter interface. They already deal with all sorts of things related to meters and would prefer for that to remain simple.

The collar doesn't get around the biggest challenges associated with installing EV charging, which are 1) undersized transformers, such as the 10 kVA transformer that serves my parents' home plus two others; 2) undersized service conductors; and 3) older meter pans that already have the maximum rated panel load attached.

(For my second 100A charger, I took a third set of service conductors from my 320/400A meter to a 100A disconnect co-located in the basement, and then a run out to the garage where the disconnect is located for my FCSP.)

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[Maquis]

It seems we’re re-hashing everything from when this thread was started a month ago. I’ll recap a couple points.

There are only a handful of utilities that currently allow it’s use. When you order one, your order goes to your utility. I provided a link to the list of participating utilities in a previous comment.

Some utilities charge a monthly fee to use it.

The thing is supposed to be smart enough to throttle the current to the EVSE to prevent overloading the service. I don’t know how this is accomplished, but would assume it would need to communicate with the EVSE to work. This probably explains the collaboration between Siemens (EVSE provider) and ConnectDer (meter tap provider).

As Flasher mentioned, there are all sorts of NEC-related issues/questions swirling around this thing. It will be interesting how it all flushes out.

 

[jefro]

The EVSE's that are ganged on single circuit can already pass NEC and adjust current per loading. Siemens has a long track record in the electric/electronic world. Tesla and others have this. Some load sharing of dryer outlets exist.

Unfortunately devices that are new can eventually be found to be dangerous.

Since there may be a lot more EV's in driveways ideas like this may help. I don't need it but I get the idea.

 

[FlasherZ]

The EVSE's that are ganged on single circuit can already pass NEC and adjust current per loading. Siemens has a long track record in the electric/electronic world. Tesla and others have this. Some load sharing of dryer outlets exist.

This isn't "what Tesla has", and that's not the NEC problem with it. Tesla has a load management system to share a branch circuit that is legal per article 625.

The issue with this equipment:
Any device attached to the meter is considered service equipment.
Service equipment requires a disconnect.
NEC requires all service disconnects for a building to be co-located.
This device does not comply with NEC if it does not co-locate a disconnect switch with your existing home panel(s).

 

[jefro]

There is a ZERO chance that this product is considered dangerous yet. Too many power companies have it and are installing it.

 

[Maquis]

There is a ZERO chance that this product is considered dangerous yet. Too many power companies have it and are installing it.

Being out of compliance with the NEC doesn’t always automatically mean dangerous.

But if a fireman shuts off the main disconnect and starts chopping into a wall to gain access to a fire, he’s not going to be happy if his axe hits the EVSE circuit run directly from the meter!

 

[hturnerfamily]

agreed, but there may be a way to link this attachment to the main panel, so when the main panel is shut off, the 'signal' no longer exists and this unit also shuts off.

 

[FlasherZ]

There is a ZERO chance that this product is considered dangerous yet. Too many power companies have it and are installing it.

Like I said, the only person whose opinion matters is the AHJ. And maybe they have some special sauce that allows it to conform to the co-located disconnects rule.

Three local power companies (the large investor-owned utility near me, the co-op that serves my home, and the local town municipal utility) have all rejected it.

I think "zero" is quite a stretch here.

 

[FlasherZ]

Being out of compliance with the NEC doesn’t always automatically mean dangerous.

Yup.

Will it work?
Is it safe?
Can it kill someone?
Will it cause financial risk, such as insurance companies denying claims or inability to sell your home until fixed in the future?

Those aren't always one and the same.

 

[FlasherZ]

agreed, but there may be a way to link this attachment to the main panel, so when the main panel is shut off, the 'signal' no longer exists and this unit also shuts off.

I hope so, I've reached out to a few people I've worked with at Siemens to see if they can get me a contact. So far, there's only marketing information online. Most of the code-making forums have concluded there are more questions than answers, and that the PoCos who have approved them are just using their rules and ignoring the NEC (which might be an insurance problem for people).

 

[jefro]

The gizmo reads the downstream current and if needed it will lower the EVSE charge. So if you tossed the main breaker the EVSE would run at it's max setting. The signal is a simple inductive meter on both legs.

I didn't suggest it was dangerous. That would only be proven true or false with time and use. The meter is on a different specification.

 

[FlasherZ]

The gizmo reads the downstream current and if needed it will lower the EVSE charge. So if you tossed the main breaker the EVSE would run at it's max setting. The signal is a simple inductive meter on both legs.

I didn't suggest it was dangerous. That would only be proven true or false with time and use. The meter is on a different specification.

You're not understanding what is being discussed here.

NEC requires that power needs to be able to be disconnected to the entire building and everything in and outside of it, from a single location, with 6 or less switch throws.

It's not clear how this device allows that to happen. Therefore, it's not compliant with code and represents a risk.

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