Motortrend Rivian R1T First Drive

[vandy1981]

Motor Trend Review! The 2022 Rivian R1T Is the Most Remarkable Pickup We’ve Ever Driven

There isn't complete overlap between the F150L and the R1T target markets, but I thought this would be of general interest.

Can't wait until someone does a F150L/R1T/CT/Hummer head-to-head comparison.

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[Sgt Beavis]

Honestly, I'm going to consider it. At $70000 it's price competitive with the Lariat extended range F150. The tank turn capability would be exceptionally useful to me when off roading. If the EV Tax credit goes up my $5000, then I could afford the 400mile version as well.

 

[Sapphire]

i could see myself in a Rivian too. I love its acceleration, faster charging than the Lightning, gear tunnel, and suspension. I don’t care for the interior trim and space as much as the Lightning (I think the sweet spot is more buttons than the Rivian, and fewer than the Lightning). At least there is competition to keep the automakers on their toes. I assume Rivians are sold out for years at this point too, so it’ll be a Lightning or nothing for me for the next few years.

My biggest hesitation with the Lightning is the 150kW charging rate. It’s the weakest thing I can see, and doesn’t bring much against the competition.

 

[Toadkillerdog]

i could see myself in a Rivian too. I love its acceleration, faster charging than the Lightning, gear tunnel, and suspension. I don’t care for the interior trim and space as much as the Lightning (I think the sweet spot is more buttons than the Rivian, and fewer than the Lightning). At least there is competition to keep the automakers on their toes. I assume Rivians are sold out for years at this point too, so it’ll be a Lightning or nothing for me for the next few years.

My biggest hesitation with the Lightning is the 150kW charging rate. It’s the weakest thing I can see, and doesn’t bring much against the competition.

If I had a local dealer I would buy one

 

[Sapphire]

If I had a local dealer I would buy one

Excellent point. Are sales only online? No dealer network means suspect warranty repair locations too.

 

[TRP]

My biggest hesitation with the Lightning is the 150kW charging rate. It’s the weakest thing I can see, and doesn’t bring much against the competition.

I have a Mach E with the 150kw charging rate. It easily charges up to 90% overnight at home. I've DC fast charged it many times and 10-80% takes 35-40min.

I know the Lightning battery pack will be larger than the one in my car but I'm not concerned about the charge rate. I currently don't feel like I'm spending too much time at a DCFC location. At home I wake up to 90-100% with no issues either.

With the Lightning it will be charged much the same way, in my case, at home while I sleep. I guess you have different expectations

 

[Sapphire]

I have a Mach E with the 150kw charging rate. It easily charges up to 90% overnight at home. I've DC fast charged it many times and 10-80% takes 35-40min.

I know the Lightning battery pack will be larger than the one in my car but I'm not concerned about the charge rate. I currently don't feel like I'm spending too much time at a DCFC location. At home I wake up to 90-100% with no issues either.

With the Lightning it will be charged much the same way, in my case, at home while I sleep. I guess you have different expectations

I’d love to charge at home, but the truck won’t fit in my garage, and I’ll have to use public chargers. That’s not really my concern, though. I’ll want to use the truck for road tripping. While I expect it will be mostly fantastic at road trips, the competition will be capable of 200kW+ charging. 41 minutes for 15-80% will feel ok, but seeing Teslas, Porsches, and Rivians charging 15-80% in 20 minutes is going to sting. More makers are probably going to 800V packs as the trend, likely Ford too, once more of the EA network supports 200kW+ (it’s the voltage of the pack that in part is how they support 200kW+, right?).

Don’t get me wrong, I‘m still very interested in being an early adopter, just not too early, depending on what compromises I’ll need to make.

 

[astricklin]

I’d love to charge at home, but the truck won’t fit in my garage, and I’ll have to use public chargers. That’s not really my concern, though. I’ll want to use the truck for road tripping. While I expect it will be mostly fantastic at road trips, the competition will be capable of 200kW+ charging. 41 minutes for 15-80% will feel ok, but seeing Teslas, Porsches, and Rivians charging 15-80% in 20 minutes is going to sting. More makers are probably going to 800V packs as the trend, likely Ford too, once more of the EA network supports 200kW+ (it’s the voltage of the pack that in part is how they support 200kW+, right?).

Don’t get me wrong, I‘m still very interested in being an early adopter, just not too early.

Most all evse are weatherproof so you don't have to be inside to charge.
As far as road trips go...how many road trips do you take in a year that are over 300 miles? I used to drive between Dallas and Lubbock about once a year(350 miles) and looking at that route currently I would need to make one stop for a 30 minute charge and then a second stop for a charge where we usually stop for lunch anyway. I could make the trip even with the standard range battery with those charging stops. Charging stops will add less than 30 minutes to the trip time, to me that's not a big deal. If there were more charging stations on this route, I could charge a few more times but for shorter session and just charge during restroom breaks and lunch. When I was 10 years younger, I could make the trip with only one stop but these days I will make a pit stop before and after lunch. As long as there are charging stations available every 100-150 miles I think I could make the trip without any additional time over an ice vehicle. As we see the charging station network grow I am sure we will see stations pop up every 20 to 30 miles along the major routes so that people can stop when needed.

Using public Dcfc for day to day charging is going to be expensive and damaging to the battery.
Personally, I think that if you don't have access to level 2 charging either at home or at your place of work, a bev is probably not for you at this time.

 

[Sapphire]

Most all evse are weatherproof so you don't have to be inside to charge.
As far as road trips go...how many road trips do you take in a year that are over 300 miles? I used to drive between Dallas and Lubbock about once a year(350 miles) and looking at that route currently I would need to make one stop for a 30 minute charge and then a second stop for a charge where we usually stop for lunch anyway. I could make the trip even with the standard range battery with those charging stops. Charging stops will add less than 30 minutes to the trip time, to me that's not a big deal. If there were more charging stations on this route, I could charge a few more times but for shorter session and just charge during restroom breaks and lunch. When I was 10 years younger, I could make the trip with only one stop but these days I will make a pit stop before and after lunch. As long as there are charging stations available every 100-150 miles I think I could make the trip without any additional time over an ice vehicle. As we see the charging station network grow I am sure we will see stations pop up every 20 to 30 miles along the major routes so that people can stop when needed.

Using public Dcfc for day to day charging is going to be expensive and damaging to the battery.
Personally, I think that if you don't have access to level 2 charging either at home or at your place of work, a bev is probably not for you at this time.

The weatherproof EVSEs would be fine, but I don’t have a driveway. Draping an extension cord across the sidewalk to the street parking may lead to a pile of bodies in front of my place. Too much hassle to clean those up. I recognize my situation for charging at home isn’t typical, and for most Lightning owners, charging at home is going to be wonderful.

The road tripping involves one roundtrip from Chicago to Phoenix for holidays (~3600 miles total), a roundtrip Chicago to Destin, FL every couple years (~1900 miles total), a trip to Door County, WI (~600 miles total), and weekend trips that are less than 300. Again, the 41 minutes for 15-80% isn’t bad to me, but if I see I could buy another EV truck/SUV that charges faster, it’ll just be annoying, and I want Ford to reduce as many irritants and hurdles as possible. It’s not a dealbreaker for me. Pre-pandemic I would fly to Arizona, but miss my dog terribly. Post pandemic, I can spend a couple months with family in Arizona with my dog, and the office won’t hassle me about working remotely. Change brings new opportunities!

It’s similar to why I‘m not buying an ICE F-150. I would love the crap out of an ICE F-150, but knowing there are options where I don’t have to deal with diffs, timing belts, o2 sensors, spark plugs, oil changes, piston break-in, oil consumption, exhaust, jerkwads targeting catalytic converters, fuel pumps, transmissions… I’m just not interested in that hassle again. I reserve the right to absolutely adore the beauty of a NA V8 and grumbly exhaust notes, and also never want to own any more of them.

 

[Sapphire]

Paging @MickeyAO: what’s your take on the degradation from only using level 3 charging vs level 2? Conventional wisdom I’ve seen is level 3 = more heat = packs degrade faster. However, I’ve also seen reports that while true, the difference between level 2 and 3 isn’t massive (ala https://www.myev.com/research/interesting-finds/is-dc-fast-charging-bad-for-your-electric-car), and there is a significant impact of ambient temp, charge cooling systems, and evolving battery chemistry. I also hear choosing to keep batteries at 80% or less vs 80%+ is a bigger deal. I lean towards this is mostly an issue beyond 120,000 miles on a vehicle, and I’ve never kept a vehicle that long, so I kinda don’t care. Maybe I should care in this case though, to your point, @astricklin . I’m also liking the idea of racking up tripped bodies with my level 2 extension cord across the sidewalk, the more I think about it.

 

[MickeyAO]

Paging @MickeyAO: what’s your take on the degradation from only using level 3 charging vs level 2? Conventional wisdom I’ve seen is level 3 = more heat = packs degrade faster. However, I’ve also seen reports that while true, the difference between level 2 and 3 isn’t massive (ala https://www.myev.com/research/interesting-finds/is-dc-fast-charging-bad-for-your-electric-car), and there is a significant impact of ambient temp, charge cooling systems, and evolving battery chemistry. I also hear choosing to keep batteries at 80% or less vs 80%+ is a bigger deal. I lean towards this is mostly an issue beyond 120,000 miles on a vehicle, and I’ve never kept a vehicle that long, so I kinda don’t care. Maybe I should care in this case though, to your point, @astricklin . I’m also liking the idea of racking up tripped bodies with my level 2 extension cord across the sidewalk, the more I think about it.

Early testing on Direct Current Fast Charging ((DCFC) since Level 3 is actually for 240 VAC and has not been set in standards yet) from several years ago showed a devastating effect on the cells harvested from a Tesla Model S when following the recorded DCFC profile. Most of the damage from DCFC comes from lithium plating.

For some of the research we have done lately, take a look at Fast-Tracking Fast Charging | Southwest Research Institute (swri.org)

I will also say that the SOC you charge to has a significant impact on the life of the battery. While most of my testing on this area is calendar life storage, I will say the higher the SOC over the long term, the worse it is for the 'cell' (an important distinction since this is where I do most of my testing).

10 years in the testing of electric vehicles has led me to a couple of basic rules for me to own an electric vehicle.
#1 is active cooling. If a vehicle has convection or passive cooling, just remember that works both ways, so a hot summer day in Texas is not kind to a battery pack.
#2 is charge at the slowest rate possible to meet your SOC before the beginning of the day.
#3 is charge to the lowest SOC you need to easily fulfill your daily driving needs.

 

[astricklin]

#3 is charge to the lowest SOC you need to easily fulfill your daily driving needs.

Knowing this, let's say I need 30% of the battery on a daily basis. Would it be better to go 40%-10% or 60% -30%?

I guess practically it depends on what an individual might need as buffer for any potential extra driving.

 

[MickeyAO]

We store cells at 30% State of Charge (SOC)(new shipping SOC), 50% SOC (old standard storage SOC), and 80% SOC (normal charging SOC), at different temperatures and then do a reference performance test every four weeks. I can look at these graphs and tell you that higher temperature and higher SOC leads to more degradation in the static capacity of individual cells. This DOES NOT mean the same happens inside a full pack. I have not tested that.

We also do cycle life at various delta SOC (centered around 50% SOC) and the higher the delta, the greater the degradation. If I want to baby a pack, I want to keep it around 50% SOC as much as possible, 30% if I'm not going to drive for a while, and somewhere around 25C (77F) as much as possible.

However, when I buy the Lighting, I plan on a 3-year lease and really don't care what I do to the battery, and quite frankly, I'm interested in what damage does happen.

 

[MickeyAO]

Knowing this, let's say I need 30% of the battery on a daily basis. Would it be better to go 40%-10% or 60% -30%?

I guess practically it depends on what an individual might need as buffer for any potential extra driving.

In this case, based on the data I have collected on individual cells over the years, I would say 50% - 20% SOC. It will really depend on your tolerance on range anxiety as the remaining miles ticks down.

 

[astricklin]

In this case, based on the data I have collected on individual cells over the years, I would say 50% - 20% SOC. It will really depend on your tolerance on range anxiety as the remaining miles ticks down.

So this is probably a separate discussion, but it seems most all manufacturers are building a buffer into the battery pack. You see a lot of specs stating X kWh total with X kWh usable.
With that in mind, when the vehicle itself shows a charge of 100% that isnt really 100% soc for the battery pack, it's maybe only 90%. And if this is the case one would imagine that you could do the math and figure out that charging to 85 or 90 indicated is actually 80% of the total pack capacity.

Maybe I'm just way off here, but I was thinking that was the intention behind building so much excess capacity into the pack. So you could charge to 100% indicated and be actually going to a lower soc and doing less damage to the cells.

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