Anyone know what the idle draws on the circuits are?

[BeeKind]

I'm confident there were losses, once, I wasn't expecting from the load that was being put to the truck. I saw someone else express noticing something similar and felt confident about this post.

Why that happened I'm less confident than when I started the thread.

I need to play more. If I don't notice the same thing again I'm far less concerned.

I do think every circuit should be accessible from the exterior. Like, big believer in that. Should be able to lock the truck securely while using all circuits in all weather conditions.

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[Lytning]

BeeKind, here are a few comments which I hope you find helpful.

1. Regarding: " AC circuits always have current being supplied and when devices turn on they draw off the current being supplied" - Comment: Technically, AC circuits have voltage supplied versus current. Think of voltage as pressure in a piping system, and current as flow in a piping system. When you open a valve in a piping system, the pressure causes flow to occur. In an electrical circuit when a switch is closed, voltage causes current to "flow" to a user device. There is no current in an AC circuit until a user device is plugged in or a switch is closed to a user device. There is no voltage or current being supplied on the output side of an open switch or circuit breaker.

2. Regarding: " When you toggle a circuit on, it puts some current on that circuit" - Comment: When a switch is closed, there is voltage applied to the circuit. There is current on the circuit only if a user device is attached. Example: Turning on a wall switch to a receptacle with a lamp plugged into the receptacle results in current only if the lamp switch is "on" to energize the light bulb. If the lamp is switched "off", there is no current when the wall switch is turned "on" since there is no user device in the circuit. Qualifier: Theoretically, there may be a very tiny "current" to "charge" the added circuit from zero to line voltage, but it would be insignificant.

3. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw if nothing is connected to the truck." - Comment: Assuming all power would come from the 12 volt battery, the sure way to measure it would be with an ammeter at the 12 volt battery. An in-line ammeter would give the most accurate measurement. A clamp-on ammeter is much more available and easy to use, but it may not detect milli-amp level currents. I would expect the minimum current to be quite low (considering the small size and capacity of the 12 volt battery) and due to user devices such as sensors and say a body control module computer which are always requiring power. (Note: An OBD scan tool and app may provide a measurement of 12 volt current. However, leaving an OBD scan tool plugged in will likely be a "user device" requiring power.)

4. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw on frunk circuit?" - Comment: I would expect the minimum current to be zero with no user devices plugged in. There may be some sensors which require power, but I would expect their current to be very low. The sure way to measure it would be with an ammeter at the 12 volt supply cable to the receptacles.

5. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw on the tail circuit(s)?" - Comment: Same as for the frunk circuit.

These comments do not provide quantified answers, but I hope they provide some ideas on how to obtain them.

Best Regards.

 

[BeeKind]

I just want more data tracked more deliberately before I waste peoples time. If this isn't something others have experienced I'd want to make it repeatable.

I'm backtracking for now

BeeKind, here are a few comments which I hope you find helpful.

1. Regarding: " AC circuits always have current being supplied and when devices turn on they draw off the current being supplied" - Comment: Technically, AC circuits have voltage supplied versus current. Think of voltage as pressure in a piping system, and current as flow in a piping system. When you open a valve in a piping system, the pressure causes flow to occur. In an electrical circuit when a switch is closed, voltage causes current to "flow" to a user device. There is no current in an AC circuit until a user device is plugged in or a switch is closed to a user device. There is no voltage or current being supplied on the output side of an open switch or circuit breaker.

2. Regarding: " When you toggle a circuit on, it puts some current on that circuit" - Comment: When a switch is closed, there is voltage applied to the circuit. There is current on the circuit only if a user device is attached. Example: Turning on a wall switch to a receptacle with a lamp plugged into the receptacle results in current only if the lamp switch is "on" to energize the light bulb. If the lamp is switched "off", there is no current when the wall switch is turned "on" since there is no user device in the circuit. Qualifier: Theoretically, there may be a very tiny "current" to "charge" the added circuit from zero to line voltage, but it would be insignificant.

3. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw if nothing is connected to the truck." - Comment: Assuming all power would come from the 12 volt battery, the sure way to measure it would be with an ammeter at the 12 volt battery. An in-line ammeter would give the most accurate measurement. A clamp-on ammeter is much more available and easy to use, but it may not detect milli-amp level currents. I would expect the minimum current to be quite low (considering the small size and capacity of the 12 volt battery) and due to user devices such as sensors and say a body control module computer which are always requiring power. (Note: An OBD scan tool and app may provide a measurement of 12 volt current. However, leaving an OBD scan tool plugged in will likely be a "user device" requiring power.)

4. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw on frunk circuit?" - Comment: I would expect the minimum current to be zero with no user devices plugged in. There may be some sensors which require power, but I would expect their current to be very low. The sure way to measure it would be with an ammeter at the 12 volt supply cable to the receptacles.

5. Regarding: " What is the minimum idle current draw on the tail circuit(s)?" - Comment: Same as for the frunk circuit.

These comments do not provide quantified answers, but I hope they provide some ideas on how to obtain them.

Best Regards.

A good test may be to run the truck idle with everything off and do same period of time with outlets on and measure that. Will make that next.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I have been at a jobsite in 100+ ⁰F temperatures, running AC for several hours, as well as a jackhammer, circular saw, and several other tools on and off for 8 hours. Used maybe 4%. Similarly, I've run the house where both I and my partner work from home for 10 hours and lost about 5% 4% (see follow-up post where--I misremembered).

The draw seen on my OBD-2 when completely idle is about 1.3A. That's about 0.5 kVa (500 Watts) for the HVB (380 volts). That's about 0.3% per hour for the extended range battery.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

From the day I used the Pro Power Onboard to run the house:
First photo was taken at 07:35. Second photo was taken at 17:00, about 30 minutes before I shut everything off and we re-energized the service entrance panel.

During those 9.5 hours, the house used 5 kWh (3.8%). We had the fridge, microwave, router, and two offices (computers, monitors, fans, etc) running for that entire time.

 

[BeeKind]

I got egged on by what I thought others had observed too based on a single observation. Stating again I'm backtracking from my questions until I see it again.

 

[chl]

I don't have a lot of electron knowledge, just enough to get me in trouble. I'm going to make a few statements that I'm looking for you electricians/engineers/smart people to correct if I'm wrong. Then my questions, thanks in advance!

• AC circuits always have current being supplied and when devices turn on they draw off the current being supplied
• The truck always supplies at least some 120v AC current to the in-cabin outlets when the truck is on
• The truck must be on to operate any receptacles/circuits
• When you toggle a circuit on, it puts some current on that circuit
• This doesn't appear to be full current (ie, it's not supplying 2400W to the 20a circuit)
  • They appear to step the current up to draw
  • Observed via BBU connected to circuit kicking on when A/C compressor kicked on
  • Sustained current draw (1500W to 120v) has no problems
• The cabin outlets are not attached to the bed circuits
  • This creates a situation where you can't access the outlets that always have idle current running.
  • IE, if it's raining you can't have extension cords coming from the cabin with open door or window. So you come off the tail and you're always wasting energy in the cabin
• The two tail 120v circuits should be thought of as a kind of sub panel to the 240V 32A circuit.

So that brings me to my questions:

• What is the minimum idle current draw if nothing is connected to the truck.
  • Climate off in cabin
  • Screen off in cabin
  • Headlights off
• What is the minimum idle current draw on frunk circuit?
• What is the minimum idle current draw on the tail circuit(s)?
• What are the stepup increments? IE if it calls for 200 watts does it jump to pushing 1000? 500?

The answers to these questions could have a pretty massive impact on how long the truck lasts in a backup situation. Hopefully my understanding and questions aren't stupid.

Lytning answered your questions correctly about voltage and current, switches etc.

As for what is on/off with the state of the truck, I noticed that the USB ports seem to stay energized when the truck is off at least for a period of time - I have a USB SSD case (the SSD is formatted in exfat and has most of my thousands of music files on it to play through the USB data port). Maybe, like the lights, there is a time delay after the doors are locked?

There are two DC-to-AC inverters on the truck with ProPower 9.6kW, only one if just the 2.4kW version. One inverter drives the truck cabin and frunk outlets and the other the bed 240V and 120V outlets (a 7.2kW inverter).

There was a plan for an OTA to allow ProPower to be usable when the truck is on OR off - well, there was a press release about that anyway, but it was for a particular model (Platinum), so it seems that yes, the truck must be on to use propower on-board.

You can use the menu to turn OFF propower on-board while the truck is on. I think PPOB uses some 12v battery juice to run the inverter control circuitry or something, so having PPOB ON when the truck is OFF would drain the 12v battery even faster if PPOB is not turned off with the truck.

I'd also like to know how fast the 12v battery is draining when the truck is OFF. I know when the truck is ON there is a good deal of draw from the 12v battery and somehow the DC-DC circuitry (from HVB to LVB) caan't always keep up with it, because a lot of us have our 12v batteries getting too low for updates (below about 85% they say).

That drain on the 12v battery and it getting so low, means one day, it is going to fail and it will be sooner rather than later. AGM batteries should NEVER go below 50% SOC, but the truck software lets it get as low as 40% before any action is taken when the truck is off.

That is why people are putting their Lightnings on battery maintainers - be sure any one you use is rated for AGM batteries - they need to be charged slowly to avoid loss of life span.

Unless something is plugged in to an outlet there should be no current draw - unless there is some kind of short circuit or a parasitic draw like the LED on a GFCI circuit which would be milliamps and negligible. So no wasted energy except from the 12v battery to run the inverter control circuitry if nothing is plugged in to the cabin/Frunk circuits.

The cabin and Frunk outlets are on the same DC-to-AC inverter so an extension cord could be run from the Frunk in the rain if it is covered and shielded from the rain.

Climate, screen, headlights, computer, SYNC4, etc. draw from the 12v battery, not directly from the HVB.

The ProPower is capable of supplying a max of 9.6kW power, 240V at 30A = 7.2kW and 20A at 120V = 2.4kW (power in watts = current in amps times voltage in volts).

I don't know that there are "stepup increments" - AC power is not digital it is analog, so there shouldn't be any "steps" per se. That is, the output from the DC-to-AC inverters should be linear/continuous not in steps. The output power is dependent on the LOAD the circuits are connected to.

The current drawn at a particular voltage is dependent on the LOAD imperdance (resistance and reactance). So a 120V 20A circuit could power a LOAD with a resistive impedance of 6 ohms.
V=IxR. The power would be I x I x R, or in this case 20A x 20A x 6ohms = 2.4kW.

If the load is smaller, then the power will be lower.

BTW, power is the rate of energy usage. The higher the power the faster energy is used.

The battery holds energy, which in the case of the HVB is measured in kWh = power in kilo-watts x time in hours.

The 12v battery is rated for AH, amp-hours = current in amps x time in hours.

So our AGNM batteries are rated for 35AH, that is they can provide 35A at 12V for 1 hour.
In watt-hours, that is 12v x 35A x 1hr = 420Wh.

The specs for the ER battery (from a 2022 article - may be different):

• total energy = 142kWh
• usable energy = 131kWh
  • Usable SoC = 92%
• peak discharge power 472kW10s
• continuous power [kW]
• nominal voltage = 349V
• capacity = 408Ah
• voltage range = V to V
• weight = 816.5kg

https://www.batterydesign.net/ford-f-150-lightning-er/

The SR battery has a capacity of 108kWh with a usable 98kWh.

So as to how long the battery will be able to power a home emergency circuits assuming you are using the whole 9.6kW - this process is the same for any backup generator by the way.

The first thing you need to decide is what circuits you need to power during a black out.
Then add up all the running wattages.
Then add up all the start up wattages - things like refrigerators use more power at start up.

The Ford numbers say 3 days at 30kWh per day (but for the Standard Battery = 90kWh leaving a buffer of 8kWh if 100% charged at the start). I believe they assume the Sunrun system is installed with an ER battery and 131kWh.

"...Ford says an F-150 Lightning with the extended-range battery can power a house for about three days when using 30 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity per day. (An American household uses 29 kWh per day on average). The company also claims that it can be stretched to as long as 10 days with energy rationing. Owners can also limit how much energy is pulled from the truck if they want to leave some in reserve for driving...."

https://www.capitalone.com/cars/lea...er-your-house-with-a-ford-f150-lightning/1664

There may be some efficiency differences between the Sunrun installation (their inverter and control circuitry) versus using the outlets (the on-board inverters) that are in the bed and Frunk/cabin. But I would not expect a big difference.

If you power fewer circuits, longer.

I have a 10kW running/18kW start up gasoline generator with a 30A/240V outlet.
I use a transfer switch with 10 x 120V circuits, 6 x 15A circuits and 4 x 20A circuits.

I powered basic necessities, like the kitchen coffee maker and microwave, refrigerator, Internet and telephone equipment, the gas furnace blower and lights.

Our 50gal hot water heater keeps water hot for several days after a power outage - well insulated.

We have fans to stay comfortable in warm weather.
The furnace and a gas fireplace in the cold weather.

The longest I had to run it was 3 days one time when a storm (hurricane or derachio) kocked out power - a lot of noise and gasoline though.

I think the bed outlet 240V/30A would be adequate to keep those things running for several days - I need to redo the calculations though to be sure. I have changed some appliances since I first installed the transfer switch.

 

[chl]

Is There an Easier or Cheaper Way?
If you don’t want to go through the hullabaloo (and cost) associated with using Ford Intelligent Backup Power, there is an easier way to ride out an outage with the Lightning. All electric F-150s come with Pro Power Onboard, providing 2.4 or 9.6 kW of AC power depending on level and options. With eight to 10 household outlets, plus a 240-volt outlet in the bed of trucks with the 9.6-kW system, the Lightning can power the most important items in your house, such as a space heater or furnace fan and a refrigerator, using extension cords.

https://www.capitalone.com/cars/lea...er-your-house-with-a-ford-f150-lightning/1664

 

[Jim Lewis]

Some people have stated in their answers that no current is being drawn from an AC circuit when there is no load. That's not quite correct if an inverter, transformer, or rectifier is involved in the circuit. There is a "no-load" current for these devices.

In the 1990s, there was concern that as much as 5% of grid power was being wasted by power adapters in their idle state. It was predicted the situation would worsen with time with the proliferation of digital devices (IIRC, it was predicted if nothing was done, the % wasted power would increase to something like 20% 30% of grid power ~20 years hence (see cited reference); inefficient linear power conversion technology was in widespread use).

Evolving Energy Efficiency Standards for Adapters – Are You Ready? | CUI Inc

After reading about it way back when, I put many of my power adapters on surge suppressors or power strips, and when I'm done using "stuff," I turn off the surge suppressor or power strip. Governmental authorities around the world have instituted standards for much more efficient power adapters since then.

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