Talk me out of a HIS by Sunrun

[VTbuckeye]

You could also leave your whole home backup and use a Lumin panel to remove none critical loads in event of power failure (or even power from generator). You can then control these loads with an app if you happened to need a lesser used appliance, e.g the margarita maker. Uou can have up to 16 of these on-demand loads. Easy to install, I've ordered one for our in-design phase system so that the lightning will not get overloaded during night use. Enphase present solution only allows 4 load shedding solution vs 16 Lumin.

The ideal situation for me would be to get lightning power via a generator feed into the current system where the grid feeds in. Solar feeds in and synchronizes to grid. Powerwall will synchronize to grid/solar. The lightning generator feed is clean power, but it needs to be in phase with any other electrical source, essentially acting as the grid. We would only overwhelm the lightnings 7.2kw capacity if we were cooking (stove and oven) and running the dryer at the same time or the dryer and AC (single large window unit). In the winter when the gas boiler comes on the igniter draws a bunch of power, but it would again be dryer or cooking. If a power outage is prolonged and it is excessively cloudy/snowy and the Powerwall charge level is dwindling, I will probably use extension cords for some of my loads (AC/TV/ internet...the first world stuff).

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[adoublee]

The ideal situation for me would be to get lightning power via a generator feed into the current system where the grid feeds in. Solar feeds in and synchronizes to grid. Powerwall will synchronize to grid/solar. The lightning generator feed is clean power, but it needs to be in phase with any other electrical source, essentially acting as the grid. We would only overwhelm the lightnings 7.2kw capacity if we were cooking (stove and oven) and running the dryer at the same time or the dryer and AC (single large window unit). In the winter when the gas boiler comes on the igniter draws a bunch of power, but it would again be dryer or cooking. If a power outage is prolonged and it is excessively cloudy/snowy and the Powerwall charge level is dwindling, I will probably use extension cords for some of my loads (AC/TV/ internet...the first world stuff).

Better have a heck of a reliable zero-export mechanism in place if using the Lightning bed outlet as the "grid". If power push from solar or Powerwall are ever greater than what home is consuming, it will try to push power back to the truck. From there something bad happens unless Ford secretly made the pro power onboard inverter bidirectional which they didn't even do for the HIS power route. And that will be on a per-phase basis, so 3.6kW two times.

Summary - the HIS is the only route if you want more than one synchronizing power source interconnected.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

There are alot of competitive products coming out early 2023 such as:

https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/wall...-announced-turns-evs-into-huge-powerwall/amp/

And

https://www.emporiaenergy.com/how-the-emporia-v2x-charger-works

These, with install, will be much cheaper.

 

[ExCivilian]

I'm not sure about extra equipment. But the basic system is IQ8 plus a solar panel. A system combiner 4 (that combines up to 4 legs of panels from roof, up to 4kW of solar each), a system controller 2 that is basically a DES (distributed energy source) panel and switch to the incoming grid that feeds your main panel or a back up panel if not doing whole house. You can have an optional IQ3 or 10 battery. With IQ8s there is no ratio needed as the solar can feed the microgrid directly (unlike Tesla or most all other systems where the battery system has to be as large as what you plan to backup). The system controller will also take a generator input although this is not "certified for an EV". I don' think this will be an issue but of course will not know until we do it. The EV is a clean source of electricity and a 240V potential electron is an electron. At present this is not a Enphase sanctioned solution but my method. There are Enphase solutions coming down the road early 2023 but I think an enphase microgrid has the best chance at compatability. This is not a solution you will see coming from Tesla to utilize Ford EVs

I just got off the phone with my installer to help clarify for me what he described before. I believe the "extra equipment" he was referring to are the system controller and shutdown switch. https://enphase.com/installers/systems/sunlight-backup The "load controller" is the thing I was referring to when I said the system only has enough power to run critical components so this segregates those that can be switched off from those that are left on in case of grid failure.

I don't have any batteries planned for my install. I believe those "extra" components would be part of a battery/solar install. But if you get a battery with your system I don't think you need IQ8 micro-inverters on each panel because the battery itself has an IQ8, which posts elsewhere claim serve the same purpose of creating a power grid during an external grid failure. I don't know how accurate those claims are; enPhase is not particularly transparent on what is/isn't needed for this feature of theirs.

From the discussions here and elsewhere it seems the generator input on the system controller is unlikely to work with the F150L due to differences between floating and bonded neutrals.

The main point I was bringing up is it takes more than the panels and IQ8 micro-inverters to form a personal grid. It requires the equipment you and I listed in order to facilitate that in the event of a power failure. The IQ8s won't power a house--even when grid-formed. They power a battery, which then powers the house.

 

[PiMatrix]

Better have a heck of a reliable zero-export mechanism in place if using the Lightning bed outlet as the "grid". If power push from solar or Powerwall are ever greater than what home is consuming, it will try to push power back to the truck. From there something bad happens unless Ford secretly made the pro power onboard inverter bidirectional which they didn't even do for the HIS power route. And that will be on a per-phase basis, so 3.6kW two times.

Summary - the HIS is the only route if you want more than one synchronizing power source interconnected.

Very good point. The real grid is a gigantic battery for your home microgrid. If it is not connected the e-generator could be at risk. However I think maybe he could put the Tesla system in an non export mode so the only thing the EV generator would be doing is charging up the Tesla powerwall and it would continue to provided power to the house along with solar. Don't have a Tesla solar system so can't verify that but should be possible in which case the EV gen would not be risked with backfeed. What do you think?

 

[PiMatrix]

I just got off the phone with my installer to help clarify for me what he described before. I believe the "extra equipment" he was referring to are the system controller and shutdown switch. https://enphase.com/installers/systems/sunlight-backup The "load controller" is the thing I was referring to when I said the system only has enough power to run critical components so this segregates those that can be switched off from those that are left on in case of grid failure.

I don't have any batteries planned for my install. I believe those "extra" components would be part of a battery/solar install. But if you get a battery with your system I don't think you need IQ8 micro-inverters on each panel because the battery itself has an IQ8, which posts elsewhere claim serve the same purpose of creating a power grid during an external grid failure. I don't know how accurate those claims are; enPhase is not particularly transparent on what is/isn't needed for this feature of theirs.

From the discussions here and elsewhere it seems the generator input on the system controller is unlikely to work with the F150L due to differences between floating and bonded neutrals.

The main point I was bringing up is it takes more than the panels and IQ8 micro-inverters to form a personal grid. It requires the equipment you and I listed in order to facilitate that in the event of a power failure. The IQ8s won't power a house--even when grid-formed. They power a battery, which then powers the house.

Actually, the IQ8s can power a house with NO battery. They can even handle surge startup current by momentarily increasing the current from the solar inverters while decreasing the voltage slightly. Pretty amazing really. So there is no battery to solar ratio with IQ8s. But you are correct that the Enphase batteries can throttle the IQ7s. FYA...The grid switch is part of the system controller 2.

You are correct on powering the generator input directly from the bed of truck due to the bonded neutral. But this would not apply to power from HIS as it has no bonded neutral.

 

[ExCivilian]

Actually, the IQ8s can power a house with NO battery.

What happens when you're powering your house off solar without any storage anywhere and a cloud crosses the sky?

 

[VTbuckeye]

Very good point. The real grid is a gigantic battery for your home microgrid. If it is not connected the e-generator could be at risk. However I think maybe he could put the Tesla system in an non export mode so the only thing the EV generator would be doing is charging up the Tesla powerwall and it would continue to provided power to the house along with solar. Don't have a Tesla solar system so can't verify that but should be possible in which case the EV gen would not be risked with backfeed. What do you think?

I probably don't have a good way to attach the lightning to my home system other than a generac critical load panel generator switch that would isolate from my battery/solar which would isolate itself be isolated from the grid in the event of a grid failure. Or I can drive the truck to my 70 year old parent's house and provide them backup power while my power wall takes care of my immediate family.

 

[adoublee]

Very good point. The real grid is a gigantic battery for your home microgrid. If it is not connected the e-generator could be at risk. However I think maybe he could put the Tesla system in an non export mode so the only thing the EV generator would be doing is charging up the Tesla powerwall and it would continue to provided power to the house along with solar. Don't have a Tesla solar system so can't verify that but should be possible in which case the EV gen would not be risked with backfeed. What do you think?

I don't think non-export mode is a safety function, it is an economic one. Therefore, I don't think the Powerwall is set up to provide absolute surety of no push to the grid at any moment in this configuration, but I could be wrong. A generic and operational generator input if one existed would be more likely to incorporate a failsafe zero export because generators are damaged by backfeed too.

Not to bag on them to be a hater, but I am very leery of anything Tesla for something like reliable back-up power. I've heard of things like a requirement for operational internet to take system into back-up to derating power below 50degF that make me believe it is best suited as a grid-interactive financial play in select markets.

 

[cvalue13]

derating power below 50degF

during the Texas freezepocolypse, I understand a lot of people learned the hard way that cold PowerWalls are not … good

 

[VTbuckeye]

during the Texas freezepocolypse, I understand a lot of people learned the hard way that cold PowerWalls are not … good

That is why the solar installers around here recommend putting them in the basement of the house (temp ranges from low 60s to low 70s) .

 

[adoublee]

during the Texas freezepocolypse, I understand a lot of people learned the hard way that cold PowerWalls are not … good

In at least one model iteration, they didn't have configured so that solar could operate during a utility outage. Shame shame

 

[PiMatrix]

What happens when you're powering your house off solar without any storage anywhere and a cloud crosses the sky?

Ah, good questions. Well the idea is you have more sunlight than you need. So if you are using say 50% of your solar output, and the sun comes along an blocks 50% of the sun, your panels increase output so you are using all the available solar energy in the house. If you are using too much you could see a brownout. Having a battery, even a small 3T (or lightning) would protect from even complete sun blockage for short periods. There's no other system out there that can do this. Usually you lose grid, you lose solar, period... by utility rules.

The amount of CPU processing power and high power electronics inside each microinverter to do this is very impressive.

There is an excellent Enphase Labs video that gives a demo here.

 

[cvalue13]

That is why the solar installers around here recommend putting them in the basement of the house (temp ranges from low 60s to low 70s) .

In lots of Texas, basements are rare (houses are either sitting on Limestone, or in a swamp)

And in central Texas (or at least Austin) in particular, they have to be installed outdoors by code

 

[Firestop]

So as the title states I'm struggling to see the downsides to my decision to install a Home Integration System (HIS) by SunRun at my Cali home. Here's the deets:

• 2022 Lariat Extended Range is currently shipped and should arrive at the dealer by month's end
• Quotes to install Ford CSP range between $750-1250 so I'm calling it $1k for the cheapest option (sunk cost to charge at home)
• Quote from Sunrun for just HIS $9k which includes installation of CSP
• This is where things get interesting:
  • Tiny 6 panel (2.12 kwh) system that allegedly will get approx 3k kwh per year, HIS and CSP installed: $11.5k
  • Whole system qualifies for 30% tax credit: ~$3.5k
  • Alternative fuel tax credit, for installing the CSP: $1k (not sure I can double dip like this but I'll ask my accountant later)
  • Cost of electricity in Cali averaging .30/kwh (.21/kwh off peak and .51/kwh on peak which is 4-9pm), so annually the 6 panels will generate approx $1k of electricity at SCE rates
• My subjective math:
  • $11.5k solar + HIS + CSP
  • -$3.5k tax credit
  • -$1k CSP sunk cost
  • Potential -$1k alternative fuel tax credit
  • $6-7k system cost which would pay itself off in approx 6-7 years
  • Because I already have Sunrun panels (12 of them) and Sunrun is installing the rest, they'll tie in the entire system and I'll be able to use solar during any outage to reduce draw on the truck (wont be able to charge tuck from excess for now)
  • That number does not factor the peace of mind of having backup power when Cali has more rolling blackouts in the years to come AND
  • 
    When Ford+Sunrun brings Intelligent Power (different then Intelligent Backup Power) online, and I'm able to use the truck's battery as my primary source of electricity during peak hours that would prevent me from drawing from the grid at .51/kwh from 4-9pm which is astronomical in cost and potentially save me oodles, and then recharge the truck at night for .21/kwh. For example, this month I used 310 peak kwh so that's a saving of approx $90/mo or another $1k per year, cutting the repayment period in half to 3-3.5 years. ~ fully aware this could be vaporware lol. I did find this:​

Power usage that keeps getting smarter... Available third quarter 2023​

K go!!! Tell me all the reasons I'm crazy or my logic is flawed so I talk myself out of this lol

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning….your discussion has categorically talked me out of any thought of going with the SunRun/Ford solution…even using a private contractor as I live in non-SunRun-serviced State…!

I’m personally waiting for competing alternatives to come to market…….

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