What to choose, what to choose?

[chl]

ISO 15118 is the yet to be finalized standard I referred to in earlier posts. It's a good standard but it's still unclear how many American EV makers will support it and when. I doubt Tesla will support it any time soon. Hopefully, Ford will support it but probably only in new models and highly doubtful existing Lightnings would ever get it.

Again, there is no technical issue that could not be solved. It's all very doable technically. Nissan supported V2H based on the ISO 15118 pre-cursor more than a decade ago. Close minded/greedy business mindset is the real obstacle. Just look at the effort and time it took for Apple to finally support third-party repair.

Yes short-term greedy thinking runs the business world too often. And sometimes it backfires.

Apple's strategy caused them to miss the boat in the personal computer market in the late 80's and 90's, and they nearly went bankrupt in 1997, until the iPod, iTunes, the Internet and the App store, saved them, thanks to Jobs return.

The mid-late 90's were dark days for Apple - one of my law patent partner's wife was an exec with Apple.

"In an effort to compete with these rivals [IBM and Microsoft], Apple embarked on a series of ill-fated business decisions. In the early 1990s, the company introduced a series of new products, including the Newton PDA and the Macintosh LC, which were not well received by consumers and failed to sell.

In addition, Apple's focus on high-end products and its refusal to license its software to other companies limited its ability to compete in the growing personal computer market.

As Apple's financial situation worsened, the company was forced to lay off thousands of employees and close several facilities. In 1997, Steve Jobs returned to the company as CEO, bringing with him a new vision for Apple's future.

Jobs quickly realized that the company's existing products were not competitive and that its business model was unsustainable. He set out to turn the company around, starting with the development of a new operating system, Mac OS X, and a new product lineup, including the iMac and the iPod.

Despite these efforts, Apple's financial situation continued to deteriorate, and the company was forced to consider a merger with another technology company or a complete bankruptcy."

The NIH (not-invented-here) attitude/syndrome can be the downfall of a company, along with refusal to go along with or cooperate in standardization, or license their in-house technology to others.

Tesla kept NACS and their EVSE network exclusively for their vehicles until recently.

As a result, adapters fill our storage compartments.

The Lightning and Mach-e support/implement ISO 15118 for Plug and Charge, and I assume the Lightning is also using it for the Home Integration System, since ISO 15118 enables two-way connectivity between the Vehicle and the grid (or house) through the EVSE.

"...The “formal” name for ISO 15118 is “Road Vehicles – Vehicle to Grid Communication Interface.” At its most basic, ISO 15118 is an international standard that defines the communications protocol between the charging station and the electric vehicle, whether using AC, DC, wireless, or pantograph charging.

The protocol enables plug & charge, where the EV driver simply plugs the vehicle into the charge point. Then, using the ISO 15118 interface, the EV identifies itself to the charging station, allowing for instant authorization for and the initiation of charging.

Where ISO 15118 may ultimately have the greatest impact is that it ensures the ability for two-way connectivity between vehicle to grid, enabling bidirectional charging – vehicle-to-grid charging (V2G) and vice versa..."

https://driivz.com/glossary/iso-15118/

From the Sunrun page:

"...If you purchase a 2023 model year Lightning™ with the extended range battery, the Ford Charge Station Pro is included with the purchase of your vehicle....this is the only charger that can pair with the Home Integration System to enable Home Backup Power... Ford F-150® Lightning™ customers can choose any installation provider of their choice. The Home Integration System and Ford Charge Station Pro hardware are required to enable Home Backup Power. The Home Integration System hardware is available for purchase without Sunrun installation through our vendor AEE at his.aeesolar.com, and the Charge Station Pro hardware is similarly available through Ford, here. Both systems should be installed by a licensed electrician. ..."

https://www.sunrun.com/ev-charging/ford-f150-lightning

So, we can assume from that the Sunrun (Delta) system requires the FCSP because that is the ONLY Lightning "charger" that provides for accessing the DC from the battery.

But that does not mean that another home integration system couldn't pair with the FCSP.

The FCSP simply serves as the interface for the DC output from the Lightning to the home system DC-AC inverter. The control of the FCSP for the energy transfer seems to be under the control of the Lightning software through BlueTooth communications.

So all that the HIS might do is detect the grid is out and that the DC-AC is available and then switch from the grid to the inverter output.

Most automatic transfer switches detect 2 things and then switch:

1) grid power is out and
2) generator power is available

So if the Lightning software can be made to initiate connecting the battery to the FCSP to feed an inverter (any inverter) then the rest is a function of the transfer switch to enable backup power from the inverter.

My Lightning is a SR battery version, so I do not have the on-board software for the HIS built in.
I suppose I would have to download it somehow to test the above so I could initiate a "home backup" and measure for DC voltage (400VDC or the nominal 370VDC some mention) at the terminals inside the FCSP.

But on the other hand, since I personally can power my emergency circuits with 30A, I will probably just use the ProPower On-board 240V 30A output and save the cost of a 400V 40A inverter.

Sponsored

 

[chl]

Yes, with the Enphase Smart Switch, from what I have garnered from some research on the topic.

So I guess you mean that Enphase is requiring their EVSE and their Home Integration System to do home backup, and won't just take a DC output from any EVSE like the FCSP?

 

[chl]

Thanks for your reply.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I know the Lightning communicates with the FSCP for the Home Backup via Bluetooth - which is why it is so buggy many users say, fwiw.

But how do we know the FCSP cannot provide DC to any inverter? Has that been tested? If so can you send me the cite/link for it? Not saying you are wrong just would like to see what the test results were.

I understand the control of the Lightning DC output to the FCSP is under the control of the Ford software - I'd have to buy it for $500 because I have a SR battery model - which is proprietary.

But is there any control / 2-way communication between the Lightning and the Sunrun (Delta) inverter system? And/or does the FCSP interact with the HIS through Ford control software?
Perhaps the Ford software controls the transfer switch in the Sunrun (Delta) system?

If not, then I think the DC output through the FCSP could be provided to ANY inverter system.

If that has been tested and proven no, then that's too bad.

Really there is no reason for the Ford software to need to control anything but the DC output to the FCSP through the DC pins of the CCS cable, except maybe to be a turn key / end to end home backup.

Another reason of course could be a deal made with Sunrun for exclusivity...at the consumer's expense.

 

[chl]

But how do you know the FCSP cannot provide DC to any inverter? Has that been tested? If so can you send me the cite/link for it?

One way to test it would be to disconnect (or not connect at all) the Sunrun components, initiate home backup through the Ford software, and see if the Lightning battery DC voltage is present on the DC output terminals in the FCSP.

I don't have the software and I don't think I want to spend $500 just to find out.

A $400 transfer switch is all around less expensive, less complex and can provide 240V 30A (7.2kW), just not worth the big expense to have an extra 2.4kW to me.

In other words, this discussion is just academic to me as an electrical engineer.

I see there is some communications wires between the FCSP and the Delta BDI so maybe that would be the hang up.

Having to do a pairing between the Lightning and the Sunrun HIS through the FCSP seems to be part of the setup - just looked at a document about commissioning the system.

Too bad

 

[Jodokk]

Thanks for your reply.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I know the Lightning communicates with the FSCP for the Home Backup via Bluetooth - which is why it is so buggy many users say, fwiw.

But how do we know the FCSP cannot provide DC to any inverter? Has that been tested? If so can you send me the cite/link for it? Not saying you are wrong just would like to see what the test results were.

I understand the control of the Lightning DC output to the FCSP is under the control of the Ford software - I'd have to buy it for $500 because I have a SR battery model - which is proprietary.

But is there any control / 2-way communication between the Lightning and the Sunrun (Delta) inverter system? And/or does the FCSP interact with the HIS through Ford control software?
Perhaps the Ford software controls the transfer switch in the Sunrun (Delta) system?

If not, then I think the DC output through the FCSP could be provided to ANY inverter system.

If that has been tested and proven no, then that's too bad.

Really there is no reason for the Ford software to need to control anything but the DC output to the FCSP through the DC pins of the CCS cable, except maybe to be a turn key / end to end home backup.

Another reason of course could be a deal made with Sunrun for exclusivity...at the consumer's expense.

My intention is to use a Generac switch with the 7.2kW plug, as a generator with the Enphase Smart switch. Not the whole shebang.

 

[Jodokk]

So I guess you mean that Enphase is requiring their EVSE and their Home Integration System to do home backup, and won't just take a DC output from any EVSE like the FCSP?

Update:
I just purchased the FranklinWH Battery system from Sugar Hollow Solar here in Asheville, with the aGate and a single ePower battery. The aGate has an available module for a generator, which should work for the Lightning, but only from the Bed 240 outlet, not a true V2H set-up. (The literature is a tad vague as they only mention the V2L features of the Lightning, which anyone can use with or without the $15,000 battery. No, actual V2H options are available yet.)
The Franklin set-up is system agnostic, so that was a big reason, given the notorious Enphase proprietarity. I'll keep y'all posted after the install.

 

[v2h8484]

FranklinkWH is certainly more open than Enphase. However, it lacks the feature to fully utilize your Enphase microinverters in grid down situations. You can experience situations where you have full sun but your solar system will be disabled due to the battery being almost full. It matters more in extended grid down situations. Not sure if it's possible but if your solar installer can exchange for an EG4 system then I would recommend it as it's probably the most open and a more featured and less expensive option.

 

[chl]

So if it will work with a fully protected GFCI bonded neutral generator output, which the ProPower bed output is, that's great. Otherwise there needs to be a neutral switching transfer switch to avoid GFCI trips.

The problem arises with a GFCI protected bonded generator - ground loops will occur tripping the GFCI, so a neutral switching transfer switch is needed so the generator neutral and the utility neutral are isolated.

Some (most?) modern standby generators are bonded and utilize a neutral switching transfer switch, such as Generac brand. Portable generators and now mostly bonded too, I believe.

The web page mentions both EV power sources and fuel generators.
I'd like to know more about it, the detailed circuitry and requirements.

One of the documents available says about the generator source:

-----
"Compatible with most models of standby generators. Applicable for new and retrofit installations."
----
" FranklinWH solution is an open and robust home energy ecosystem that integrates solar, battery, grid, generator and EV power sources, providing power backup during outages, peak periods, or even when you want to be off-grid 24/7."

"Generator Integration
The FranklinWH system works with both standby and portable generators, allowing high-power generator support and offering various start options. It can be automatically triggered at a customer set battery State of Charge (SOC) or be manually operated through the FranklinWH App, giving added flexibility.
Moreover, the system periodically runs the generator to conduct self-checks, verifying its functionality and providing reliable extended backup during outages."

"Vehicle-to-Loads (V2L)
V2L technology integrates your electric vehicle (EV)* into the home backup system, allowing you to use the EV battery to power your home. The innovation enables smarter and more versatile home energy control.
*Available for vehicles compatible with the FranklinWH system"
-----
Interesting they seem to show a Ford Lightning in the picture accompanying that text and although the charge port is on the passenger side in the photo, they show the truck plugged into what looks like a FCSP:

Looks like the blue oval to me:

I want to look at the Installation guides but need to register for the training it seems, so have to think about that.

I like how the White Paper goes through the NEC code sections in some detail.

Thanks for posting, going to have to take a serious look at this!

 

[chl]

Interesting they seem to show a Ford Lightning in the picture accompanying that text and although the charge port is on the passenger side in the photo, they show the truck plugged into what looks like a FCSP:

Looks like the blue oval to me:

Thanks for posting, going to have to take a serious look at this!

Then there is this about the charge port location:

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...er-side-on-existing-and-new-lightnings.16052/

 

[Jodokk]

FranklinkWH is certainly more open than Enphase. However, it lacks the feature to fully utilize your Enphase microinverters in grid down situations. You can experience situations where you have full sun but your solar system will be disabled due to the battery being almost full. It matters more in extended grid down situations. Not sure if it's possible but if your solar installer can exchange for an EG4 system then I would recommend it as it's probably the most open and a more featured and less expensive option.

I really like the EG4, but I've got the old IQ7s on the panels, so (unless I'm wrong) I'd need the ENPHASE ENPOWER EP200G101-M240US00 IQ System Controller Smart Switch to work with that?

 

[Jodokk]

So if it will work with a fully protected GFCI bonded neutral generator output, which the ProPower bed output is, that's great. Otherwise there needs to be a neutral switching transfer switch to avoid GFCI trips.

The problem arises with a GFCI protected bonded generator - ground loops will occur tripping the GFCI, so a neutral switching transfer switch is needed so the generator neutral and the utility neutral are isolated.

Some (most?) modern standby generators are bonded and utilize a neutral switching transfer switch, such as Generac brand. Portable generators and now mostly bonded too, I believe.

The web page mentions both EV power sources and fuel generators.
I'd like to know more about it, the detailed circuitry and requirements.

One of the documents available says about the generator source:

-----
"Compatible with most models of standby generators. Applicable for new and retrofit installations."
----
" FranklinWH solution is an open and robust home energy ecosystem that integrates solar, battery, grid, generator and EV power sources, providing power backup during outages, peak periods, or even when you want to be off-grid 24/7."

"Generator Integration
The FranklinWH system works with both standby and portable generators, allowing high-power generator support and offering various start options. It can be automatically triggered at a customer set battery State of Charge (SOC) or be manually operated through the FranklinWH App, giving added flexibility.
Moreover, the system periodically runs the generator to conduct self-checks, verifying its functionality and providing reliable extended backup during outages."

"Vehicle-to-Loads (V2L)
V2L technology integrates your electric vehicle (EV)* into the home backup system, allowing you to use the EV battery to power your home. The innovation enables smarter and more versatile home energy control.
*Available for vehicles compatible with the FranklinWH system"
-----
Interesting they seem to show a Ford Lightning in the picture accompanying that text and although the charge port is on the passenger side in the photo, they show the truck plugged into what looks like a FCSP:

Looks like the blue oval to me:

I want to look at the Installation guides but need to register for the training it seems, so have to think about that.

I like how the White Paper goes through the NEC code sections in some detail.

Thanks for posting, going to have to take a serious look at this!

Thanks for these thoughts. I do find it a tad misleading that they're using the Lightning. There really isn't ANY V2H option yet. If anything that cord should be coming out of the bed, rather than the charge port. Please keep me posted if you figure anything interesting out. It does seem that Franklin is doing rather well these days.