White House releases plan to build nationwide network of 500,000 EV chargers

[ZOSICK]

The basic issue at play here is carbon emissions. Our planet is heating dangerously fast. It RAINED in Denver last week- minimal snow this year. It will be a disaster for our older selves, our kids and our grandkids.

I do understand what you're saying. However, the bigger issue at hand is over population. Again, I understand what you're saying. Melting ice caps ect. However, let's not mistake climate change for weather change. I live in the middle of the desert in AZ. Some years we get tons of rain, snow and some we don't. Now if we had a steady decline or increase of one or the other year after year, I would see your point. Hard to say global warming when we (my city for example) had record high temps one year, record high rains the next, followed by record low temps. To me, it has been a revolving cycle of weather change. In Arizona, we have two seasons, hot and hotter lol. Depending on where you live of course. When it rains or snows in Arizona, people lose their minds lol. I do see your point and it will only get worse as the population increases. I don't think EV's will magically save the planet. If anything, they will cause some other type of issue to the planet. You're correct, it won't be by carbon, but it will be by something else.

The simple fact is this, everything can/will harm the planet. The greater the population the greater the impact. I find it ironic that the U.S. cares so much about global warming, yet does nothing to other countries who do far greater pollution than we do in the U.S. For some reason, the powers that be in the U.S. haven't looked at a globe. Last time I checked, the world includes countries outside the U.S. lol. To be honest, it seems as if we (U.S.) want to stop global warming in the U.S. but turn around and also aid foreign countries in polluting more. Again, just thinking out loud here. What gets me is some people (not say you) are so concerned with saving the planet yet have no issues, digging a big hole in the ground to build a big pool in their backyard, travel by plane, or take a spin on a fancy boat. Same lines as people saying they care about animals yet have no issues wearing makeup that's tested on animals or hunting them for sport and not consumption. I will never tell other people how they should feel, live, say or do, as long as the same respect is returned. Within reason of course. I'm all for discussion and everyone can learn from one another.

Sponsored

 

[Nick Gerteis]

I have no doubt the big 3 can't come up with something. To be completely honest, I think some of these companies are jumping "on board" with these EV's trucks because they want to make themselves look "green" per say. Yes, for a short distance, an EV truck may work for them, just like it would work for me. If you think an EV truck is going to haul 20,000 lbs or more for 8 straight hours on a single charge, you might know something none of us know. Of course, I'm speaking from a long-range type of scenario. However, I won't hold my breath. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it's going to create a lot of issues that do not exist currently. The new Lighting is basically one giant battery. Can you imagine how many and how much the batteries are going to weigh on a flatbed trailer that's hauling a bunch of weight across the interstate?

Like I said, short range, 100 miles or less, sure, I think it's possible. I can't wait to see real world towing tests from actual Lightning owners. I'm willing to bet the towing will be 100 miles or less depending on weight before a recharge. for some, that may work just fine. For some of us that drive and tow a long distance, this truck will not work at all. Hell, I have to drive 30 miles just to get to the interstate lol. Now, I can see a hybrid 18-wheeler that could help save gas. However, that will open a big can of worms. I drive up to 800 miles a weekend and I can't keep track of how many broken down truckers I see. Add in additional "EV" issues and this country will come to a halt. Truckers keep this country moving and functioning and prices of goods to a reasonable price. I never have or will be against EV's. However, I don't want them "forced" on us who chose not to buy them. Let's not forget that Ford or GM, can't even keep us from having issues with non EV's cars/trucks. I understand that all vehicles will have issues and we all have to "accept it" but we shouldn't. A brand new car/truck at any price point should not have a lot of issues especially with robots doing most of the work. The issues are Ford, GM, ect push out new tech and we're all the testers. I'm willing to bet not much true real world testing is involved. Yes, they do endurance testing yadda-yadda and I live somewhat close to Ford's proving grounds in AZ. I see their and other manufactures testing vehicles on I8 all the time. Keep telling yourself that Ford or any brand will have the bugs "worked out" on these big EV trucks. More tech equates to more issues. Just my 3 cents lol.

You’re correct in stating EVs should not be forced on drivers. Nothing will have to be “forced” on anybody. People are lining up to buy them today, and will do so even more in the future, of their own free will. Ford having to stop accepting new reservations for the Lightning is just one example, other manufacturers are in a similar situation. I think a major reason for this is the fact that EVs are so much more efficient, and much much cheaper to operate than comparable gas cars. I’m saving about $2K every year. Most people will. Your driving seems to include weekly long distance towing, and EVs aren’t ready for that quite yet. Give it about five years, then try it. I guarantee you will love it!

 

[Nick Gerteis]

“Flames are at the heart of what makes cooking visceral and fun,” said Andrea Reusing, chef-owner of Lantern in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and the restaurant at the Durham Hotel in Durham. She’s “attached to open flame in an emotional, almost biological way,” she added."

"Induction ranges have been available for decades, but have been slow to take off in the United States. The technology heats a pan up faster even than a gas flame, and can be tempered or shut off just as instantly. It uses a magnetic field to heat up the pan, so the pan itself becomes the heat element—meaning no wasted heat to turn a kitchen into an inferno. Induction ranges are thus more efficient than their gas rivals, requiring about 25 percent less energy to boil an equivalent amount of water."

Now can I run my wilderness induction camp stove off my F150 Lightning?

Or will I have to run down to the chargers at the ranger station first?

Not sure if you were just kidding, but I regularly use a single “burner” induction stove on camping trips. Plugs into regular 120 outlet, so Lightning should have no problem running it. Heats up fast, admittedly not as fast as gas, but faster than the electric stove top at home.

 

[EaglesPDX]

For 1M or 500M Tesla, overwhelming majority don't need DCFC most of the time

The point was how many public chargers do we need even when people have home charging. Tesla provides the answer with its 1:100 ratio.

As a Tesla owner who used public charging exclusively for first two years, there is a growing number of Tesla owners who do not have home charging.

Tesla serves that 1M population well with 10,000 chargers.

250M cars would be 2M fast DC chargers to replace gas stations.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Nothing will have to be “forced” on anybody.

EV's (zero emissions vehicles) will be and are being forced on everyone just like seat belts and air bags and emissions controls.

It's the law (more or less) for 2035 will only see EV or H2 zero emissions vehicles for sale. Global warming results are going to get worse and worse so that by 2035 the few remaining holdouts will be facing not just the common law/common good issue but likely social pressures.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I have no doubt the big 3 can't come up with something

You said until we have EV semis and we have EV semis as the links demonstrate. Thousands ordered. Shipping with the next big slug of F150 Lightnings in '23.

Many of the orders are by the big truck leasing firms.

And it applies to the first/final mile deliver trucks like Amazon which has invested in Rivian which has already begun delivering EV vans to Amazon.

EV's cut freight costs by 30%.

“Amazon’s custom electric delivery vehicles are starting to hit the road."

 

[Mr. Flibble]

The point was how many public chargers do we need even when people have home charging. Tesla provides the answer with its 1:100 ratio.

As a Tesla owner who used public charging exclusively for first two years, there is a growing number of Tesla owners who do not have home charging.

Tesla serves that 1M population well with 10,000 chargers.

250M cars would be 2M fast DC chargers to replace gas stations.

This is changing pretty quickly all things considered. For example, I looked at Quincy IL 2 years ago, and they had no EV chargers in the town. Now they have 35.

I have watched apartments get EV chargers in the parking lots because they can charge for access to electricity for the EV’s, so I can see things changing. Apartments with EV charging make more money, that’s an incentive right there for landlords.

And that’s with 2-3% of global sales being EVs. This was unthinkable 10 years ago.

I think the best opinion I have seen on this, is around the F150 Lightning:



This truck will be part of the sea-change, the idea of the EV truck being the better truck will only accelerate these changes.

And, as charging stations start to become profitable, more people will want to set them up. Places like this in NM will start to come back, but with electric power, not gas:

https://goo.gl/maps/heNHP4fUGAzGW8aW9

 

[PungoteagueDave]

40% of US drivers are renters and 10% of owned homes are multifamily units without charging so a large population that does not have home charging.



Actually more apts are going up with NO PARKING or very limited parking, most without EV charging. Our most modern apts and condos built along tram lines so can build with no/limited parking.

Retrofitting is expensive. While some enlightened employers have some charging, even in our EV tree hugger metro, only a few. We are building a new clinic and even though CEO, CFO, partners and employees have EV's from Porsche's to Tesla's to Kona's we can't get it past a sympathetic board on the financials.

And then there is travel when we all need it.

Tesla is probably the best guide to this. Roughly 10,000 chargers for 1M cars works well. When we go all EV, that would be 2,500,000 chargers. Currently 115,000 gas stations with 1,000,000 pumps.

complete BS on every point, standard from you. This is my wheelhouse, what I teach at the graduate level, both the economics and demographics.

30.5% of home occupants are renters, including single family. Many of them now have access to EV charging as an amenity. Most will within ten years.

Many states have recently implemented laws requiring EV charging in the U.S. - especially multifamily. Virtually all condo regulations require EV accommodation for condo parking space owners and most states have passed or are implimenting right-to-charge laws https://energynews.us/2021/04/27/vi...or-condo-owners-to-install-charging-stations/. Retrofitting is not expensive in most urban locales. If you own a condo with a parking spot in the U.S., anywhere, you can add a charging station. That can be expensive if it is a multi-floor pull with metering, but you can do it. The most expensive example I know about is a friend in Clearwater with a two-floor metered installation that cost him $4,200 plus a condo board fight. But if you want it, you can have it. I have assisted in about a dozen locations, including several condos and my daughter's external parking spot at her Reston townhouse (admittedly after a tussle with the HOA - now a precedent that has assisted several neighbors). This is nowhere near as bad as you would have it seem.

It is silly to own an EV without home charging. 2.5 million chargers? That's INSANE. Literally insane. There are only 150,000 gas stations in the entire U.S., and declining rapidly. Most everyone already owns the ability to charge their car. My Tesla HPWC charging stations cost me less than $1,000 each, installed. Charging a car away from home or work except on a road trip is a silly as doing so for your smartwatch.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

You said until we have EV semis and we have EV semis as the links demonstrate. Thousands ordered. Shipping with the next big slug of F150 Lightnings in '23.

Many of the orders are by the big truck leasing firms.

And it applies to the first/final mile deliver trucks like Amazon which has invested in Rivian which has already begun delivering EV vans to Amazon.

EV's cut freight costs by 30%.

“Amazon’s custom electric delivery vehicles are starting to hit the road."

We do not have EV semis. And there are major issues with getting them rolled - way behind schedule. The charging infrastructure there is the major issue - as is the battery that Elon promised, still in design phase five years later, with both Panasonic and LG indicating production transition issues.

EVs do NOT cut freight costs. At least not yet. Another assertion with evidence.

Your old link to the Amazon Rivian truck initial deliveries is laughable given the reality of more recent updates showing that Amazon's real world usage isn't working out, with range about half that initially expected. But facts? Who cares?

https://www.autonews.com/automakers...on-might-have-less-range-expected-report-says

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Gas stations have had this issue coming for years. The number of stations has been declining for a very long time. And in spite of this reduction, it's still a very low margin business. None of them survive on gasoline sales.

Very true. In fact, the higher the price per gallon, the lower the per-site profitability. Perverse, but a fact. It is a cents-per-gallon business, and as prices go up, the credit card fees cut into the margins. The best money at convenience stores is made at self-serve soda and coffee bars.

 

[EaglesPDX]

30.5% of home occupants are renters, including single family. Many of them now have access to EV charging as an amenity.

"Renters headed about 36% of the nation’s 122.8 million households in 2019"

Keep in mind that another 20% are owners of single homes, condos/duplexes etc without easy EV charging Our local floating home group, 2,900 homes, have no EV charging access is just one example of our 143,000 single detached homes.

Fair to say 90% of the renters and another 20% of owners don't have EV charging access and it would be expensive to put in vs. driving to the energy station for a quick 20 minute charge.

Again, facts and experience (2 years as homeowner with an EV without EV charging or ability to put it in).

Gets back to Tesla numbers. 1:100 for fast DC chargers per 1M cars.

Another on the ground fact based number we can use as a guide.

 

[EaglesPDX]

We do not have EV semis.

Facts say otherwise with Pepsi taking delivery of their 100 order in '23 when I'll get my F150.

Or is it "we don't have F150 Lightnings" if we applied your "logic" to the EV semis rolling out.

 

[EaglesPDX]

EVs do NOT cut freight costs.

Fuel and maintenance are 30% of trucking costs and that's based on paying top Teamster's wage scale. Those costs drop drastically with the semi-EV's so semi-EV will pay for itself in three years of savings.

As for "we don't have semis", Pepsi and Tesla are running them now. It's kind like saying "we don't have F150EV's" even though they are on the road now (just like the Pepsi semis) and delivery dates firm.

"The Tesla Semi won’t have the electric Class 8 truck market all to itself, however. Mercedes has pre-production versions of its e-Actos trucks in the hands of customers in Europe, and Volvo Trucks has electric semi trucks coming as well. While lots of people are still up in the air about buying an electric car, commercial fleet operators are already making the move to electric trucks."

 

[shutterbug]

The point was how many public chargers do we need even when people have home charging. Tesla provides the answer with its 1:100 ratio.

As a Tesla owner who used public charging exclusively for first two years, there is a growing number of Tesla owners who do not have home charging.

Tesla serves that 1M population well with 10,000 chargers.

250M cars would be 2M fast DC chargers to replace gas stations.

OMG!!! If you don't have access to L2 charging, figure this one issue first. Then buy a Tesla.

 

[sotek2345]

"Renters headed about 36% of the nation’s 122.8 million households in 2019"

Keep in mind that another 20% are owners of single homes, condos/duplexes etc without easy EV charging Our local floating home group, 2,900 homes, have no EV charging access is just one example of our 143,000 single detached homes.

Fair to say 90% of the renters and another 20% of owners don't have EV charging access and it would be expensive to put in vs. driving to the energy station for a quick 20 minute charge.

Again, facts and experience (2 years as homeowner with an EV without EV charging or ability to put it in).

Gets back to Tesla numbers. 1:100 for fast DC chargers per 1M cars.

Another on the ground fact based number we can use as a guide.

You keep going back to this ratio from Tesla without realizing that it is based far more on Geography than capacity and load. Tesla set up the network to enable driving Telsa's across the US, which means they have many stations that exist to support travel that are massively underutilized from a capacity standpoint.

We need far more L2 chargers, and incentives to help offset the costs of getting them installed in apartment buildings and the like (as you mention). We also need more DC fast chargers to support long range travel, but not nearly the amount you are talking about.

Sponsored