White House releases plan to build nationwide network of 500,000 EV chargers

[Mr. Flibble]

You can watch some Bjorn Nyland videos where he'll demonstrate the huge number of fast DC chargers in Norway.

Yes, there are a lot of DCFC’s in Norway. For long road trips.

The fact of the matter is that 82% of people in Norway charge at home. 12% charge at L2 chargers in city/public parking spots. The people who live in apartments without L2/L1 chargers don’t charge on L3 chargers alone enough to even make it into 1% of the statistics.

There are people who charge mostly at L3, but those are the exceptions and outliers who want to inconvenience themselves enough to do that. The other? They drive gas vehicles.

No matter how you slice it, with high EV adoption, the majority do not use L3 on a regular basis, and the science supports this.

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[shutterbug]

Strategically located fast DC

Is 20-50 miles away strategic?

Most parking spots not attached to a home don't have chargers or a cost effective way to bring power to them.

If there are street lights nearby, there is a way to get power to L2 chargers.

Gov't plan to incentivize rollout of 500,000

Government has plans to yak about chargers until the money runs out.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Yes, there are a lot of DCFC’s in Norway. For long road trips.

Correct. Someone said there were not.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The fact of the matter is that 82% of people in Norway charge at home.

95% so Norway has very different housing base than US where that number is around 50% who have home charging option.

Norway still has extensive fast DC charging network so a Norwegian without home charging can easily own an EV.

Retrofitting existing US multi-family dwellings is going to be very expensive vs. installing the fast DC base. We don't see any sign this is happening even in new construction. Since the fast DC base is needed no matter what (see Norway), build that as it serves home chargers and those dependent on public charging.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

95% so Norway has very different housing base than US where that number is around 50% who have home charging option.

Norway still has extensive fast DC charging network so a Norwegian without home charging can easily own an EV.

Retrofitting existing US multi-family dwellings is going to be very expensive vs. installing the fast DC base. We don't see any sign this is happening even in new construction. Since the fast DC base is needed no matter what (see Norway), build that as it serves home chargers and those dependent on public charging.

DCFC are not used for daily charging by anyone in Norway, or for that matter by pretty much anyone that factors into any of the studies in any large numbers. This is true for pretty much everywhere EVs are in use.

The only people that do this are gas station mentality people, or people that really want the prestige of owning something like a Tesla, and don’t value their own time enough to warrant using a gas vehicle to save the time that they waste constantly using L3 chargers alone.

The simple fact is that only extreme edge cases use exclusively L3 chargers. Building out an expensive network for edge case users is not cost effective. L3 chargers are needed for long road trips, and not for daily driving.

Saying that the US infrastructure prevents charging is bogus. Again, less than 30 miles per day is the norm for drivers of all kinds of vehicles. You can do that with L1 charging, which isn’t hard to install.

3% of cars in the US are EVs. That means we have more than enough charging infrastructure for charging at home by a long shot.

Furthermore, not every living space needs L1/L2 charging. Norway doesn’t have it at every house, but they have 50% EV adoption.

People that can’t gain access to L2 chargers overnight or at work should not buy an EV. It’s pretty simple logic.

It sounds like you want this to be a thing because you personally think that using an L3 to regularly charge is good for most people, when in reality its a terrible idea from a time/value proposition.

 

[EaglesPDX]

DCFC are not used for daily charging by anyone in Norway

I'm sure there are some but as the stats note with 95% having home charging, it is a much different scenario than US where 50% could have access to home charging.

The only people that do this are gas station mentality people, or people that really want the prestige of owning something like a Tesla

Or the 50% with no home charging who want an EV. "Prestige of owning a Tesla"...a bit amusing as I only got the Tesla because I could not get a Kona EV with winter weather features such as heat pump. Tried to buy it in Canada where the Kona EV's had the features but the Vancouver BC dealer (who was willing to sell it to me) said that the paperwork needed to export to US was a show stopper.

Now the guy charging next to me at 350kW...THAT is a prestige car. Model 3's have about as much "prestige" as a Chevy Impala.

The simple fact is that only extreme edge cases use exclusively L3 chargers.

Or people with no home charging, 50% of Americans at this point. It's an often asked question "can I live in an apt and have an EV" on the various EV forums. Answer is always, yes but with the but being do you live in areas with good fast DC charging coverage.

Besides allowing the 50% in US with no access to home charging a place to charge, building a 150kW charger that can charge 60 cars a day vs. L2 that can charge 2 makes more sense both from the users standpoint and the cost standpoint.

 

[EaglesPDX]

People that can’t gain access to L2 chargers overnight or at work should not buy an EV. It’s pretty simple logic.

it's not logic at all, it is your opinion based on your subjective idea of what is like to depend on fast DC charging.

Average person would need to charge 60 times a year, once every six days for 40 minutes. That is a show stopper for you, a no nevermind for others who want an EV.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

it's not logic at all, it is your opinion based on your subjective idea of what is like to depend on fast DC charging.

Average person would need to charge 60 times a year, once every six days for 40 minutes. That is a show stopper for you, a no nevermind for others who want an EV.

If this is true, then why are there no places where this is common practice? if 95% of people charge at home - that number has been increasing in Norway, as it was originally 82% only a year ago, where are the people relying solely on L3 charging?

Where are these people? The statistics from a meta-analysis of charging clearly show that its less than 1% of people that only rely on DCFC. Everyone else relies on charging at home or at work, which the largest remainder using public charging on public streets.

DCFC is used for long road trips by nearly all users, and not used otherwise.

It is only outliers who charge strictly with DCFC, and there are so few of them that they don’t even show up in the studies.

Your argument seems to be that we need to increase the DCFC network to get more people to use them for home charging; but people already don’t use them for this in any meaningful ways in any of the places where this exists.

Building out a multi billion dollar network for less than 1% of the current 3% is a bad value proposal.

Can you show me anywhere where there is a large amount of people relying solely on L3 charging, and not L1/L2 charging other than for road trips?

 

[EaglesPDX]

If this is true, then why are there no places where this is common practice?

Well there's US (and EU and China) where dependence on fast charging was running around 25% pre Covid.

"The portion of drivers reporting doing the majority of their charging at home, on the other hand, has risen from 75% pre-pandemic to 84% now."

That 25% is high considering the EV buyer demographic is still overwelming white males making over $100k, typically homeowners.

"The top demographic of 2019 EV owners are middle-aged white men earning more than $100,000 annually with a college degree or higher and at least one other vehicle in their household."

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Well there's US (and EU and China) where dependence on fast charging was running around 25% pre Covid.

"The portion of drivers reporting doing the majority of their charging at home, on the other hand, has risen from 75% pre-pandemic to 84% now."

That 25% is high considering the EV buyer demographic is still overwelming white males making over $100k, typically homeowners.

"The top demographic of 2019 EV owners are middle-aged white men earning more than $100,000 annually with a college degree or higher and at least one other vehicle in their household."

Which is kind of my point. The only people with EV’s in the US are generally the early adopters, the high income earners who can afford them. They are the brand new latest “iPhones” if you will.

It will take time before they become something other than a luxury in the US.

We have established that:

- Nearly everyone charges at home, work, or public spaces with L2
- A statistically insignificant portion charge at L3 alone
- L3 is primarily used for road trips even in high EV areas
- L1 and L2 chargers are significantly less expensive than L3
- With a low EV use, areas like lamp posts are more than enough coverage
- Most people charge at off hours
- Off hour charging will not stress the grid

So, it makes sense to install L3 chargers along highways, and L2 around parking areas. Otherwise, don’t install L3.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Which is kind of my point. The only people with EV’s in the US are generally the early adopters, the high income earners who can afford them. They are the brand new latest “iPhones” if you will.

It will take time before they become something other than a luxury in the US.

We have established that:

- Nearly everyone charges at home, work, or public spaces with L2
- A statistically insignificant portion charge at L3 alone
- L3 is primarily used for road trips even in high EV areas
- L1 and L2 chargers are significantly less expensive than L3
- With a low EV use, areas like lamp posts are more than enough coverage
- Most people charge at off hours
- Off hour charging will not stress the grid

So, it makes sense to install L3 chargers along highways, and L2 around parking areas. Otherwise, don’t install L3.

Agree with all of the above. It will however all be a moot point once we build out solar to the point we have the kWh coming out of our ears around 1-2 pm every day, ten years from now tops. Our increasingly EV fleet will be charging wherever they’re parked at that time of day, most likely at work. L1 or 2, good enough. Everyone will have an account that’ll get debited for charging in the daytime, and credited for what we put back in the grid at night. Problem solved! We need some good software engineers to write the code for this app in the next year or two, who’s ready to be the next magic unicorn startup?

 

[EaglesPDX]

The only people with EV’s in the US are generally the early adopters, the high income earners who can afford them

That was true until Model 3, Kona EV, Niro EV and other lower cost EV's and now many people with no home charging have EV's.

The question "Can I own an EV without home charging" is one of the most frequently asked questions on the EV discussion boards.

Here's my stock answer.

Lived on fast DC charging for two years. Can be done easily.

1. Get an EV with at least 250 mile range. You run on 75% of range and you will lose 30% of that in Winter and 3% per year to battery degradation.
2. Get an EV that can charge at least 150kWh on DC public chargers.
3. Locate the fast DC chargers that you will be using near home, near work, where you play, make sure you have coverage for your driving.

My annual driving is 25,000 a year with a commute that is 100 miles a day. I have chargers near work, near the house and in the middle so good fast DC charging coverage.

At 150kW it's about 30 minutes of charging. That's a charge rate of 600 miles an hour and you should roll into the charger with 30 miles left so about 20-30 minutes to 85%.

I just get out the computer and do 20 minutes worth of work.

In Winter, I'd have to charge every day for the 100 mile commute.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Nearly everyone charges at home, work, or public spaces with L2

As the actual stats noted, 25% were charging mostly outside home, down to 16% during pandemic.

Maybe 1% can charge at work on L2, they are rare, but otherwise, charging outside the home is going to be fast DC unless you can cage a ride back and forth to the L2 charger every 10 h hours.

EV Consumer Behavior

 

[jefro]

Unless there are reliable and inexpensive public charging at places where someone normally goes or workplace charging then I don't believe anyone will like charging away from home. I find that it is a small hassle to plug and unplug each night at home. I can warm or cool it on home power before I leave. I have used L3/DC charge stations just to get home and it sucks sitting there waiting and waiting. You won't live long enough to power it up on L2 while you wait.

 

[UNIKRN150]

I “get” the whole “go green” thing and I’m glad Elon Musk has shamed and frightened the auto industry into refining the EV.

And I KNOW that EVs aren’t really going to be a viable option for the masses until the “Range Anxiety” issue is addressed.

But…

When my Dewalt battery dies I replace it with a CHARGED battery. I don’t just stop working until it recharges.

You CAN’T tell me that with all the advancements in robotics, car manufacturers CAN’T come up with a swappable “battery pack”.

You pull in with your dead battery, a robot unplugs it, plugs in a charged one in LESS TIME than it takes me to fill my tank with gasoline and you’re on your way.

The Government loves to FORCE the auto industry to do things… why don’t they FORCE them to standardize on a swappable battery pack for EVs AND THEN sink piles of our tax dollars into building swapping stations?

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