Talk me out of a HIS by Sunrun

[ResidualJinx]

outside my bailiwick here, but for you to consider: I get the feeling that the HIS inverter etc interface only with small amounts of solar (is it 4kWh)? Not sure if I understand that to mean that if you later want or need a larger PV system the HOS may not be sufficient to play their roll (and perhaps even need extra equipment to deal with the HIS being undersized)

but this is not an informed thing, just a line of question f’ing I’ve felt I’ve sensed in the convos of more experienced folks and perhaps for you to weigh into your calculus

Great point, and something I'm keeping a very close eye on the Delta BDI comes in various sizes from 4-10kw and that dictates the amount of PV in during normal operation connected to the grid. I'm currently optioned for the 8kw inverter My current 4kw system plus my 2kw plus a little wiggle room I guess but I wouldn't be surprised if they try to pull a fast one and give me something else.

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[ResidualJinx]

Maybe I’m misunderstanding but are you calculating pay back based on solar savings or peak shaving savings from being able to use the trucks power to power your house during peak power periods. If it’s for solar I think you can get solar+FCP for less cost than the HIS+solar option. If it’s peak shaving then I don’t think ford has enabled that feature yet and not guaranteed that they ever will as well.

Initial payback of 7 years is only on solar, 3 1/2 is on the solar + peak. A cursory browsing of the interwebs is giving me a rough estimate of a $6k for an equivalent system. Which would mean this system is approx $5.5k out the door.

That wouldn't factor the $1k cost for the FCSP installation. So it's closer to a $4.5k additional cost; and if I wanted to add battery backup to a solar system forget it. Easily $20k by itself. Manual transfer switch and pro power would be the way to go but then that would be another $1k and now my system is only $3.5k more.

 

[ResidualJinx]

My opinion would be there are cheaper and better ways to go about this.
1. You need alot more solar to add any real cost savings other than back up power for your home.
2. A Sol Ark inverter, a manual transfer switch, and the Ford 9.6 bed power option costs the same and will be more of a home upgrade than the Ford Delta system that locks a future owner into the Ford ecosystem.
3. Ford intelligent power is vaporware at this point. The Tesla VPP exists now. If I lived in Cali, I'd want a Powerwall or Powerwall +.

The goal was to come in as low as possible to get to return on initial investment as quickly as possible with the added benefit of backup power. The goal was not to offset electric usage, that's just a happy tiny side effect.

I have a deep dark hatred for Tesla, it's prob severely biased and prob unfounded but there is something about a company I cant call and have someone answer a phone that scares the crap out of me. I was super close to buying a solar + powerwall system in my previous home and then I read all the reports regarding user experience when something goes wrong and I literally could get ahold of no one for months before my install and I ended up cancelling toward the end. Plus the idea that I could pay for something in cash and not actually fully own it is beyond nuts to me, They're my SRECs and I need em now! Everything is vaporware until it aint, like my Lightning and Tesla's FSD.

Lastly, I hope this doesn't come off too crass but just like any future owner of my home isn't interested in giving me extra money just because, I'm not interested in giving him extra capabilities in the house out of the kindness of my heart. That's to say I dont care if they can use it, I only care if I can use it.

 

[ResidualJinx]

Some thoughts:

1. If you think V2G standards are going to continue (and it looks like they are), then I'd not worry about the lifetime of your truck.

2. The HIS system trades off a bit of flexibility / adds complexity in solar PV setup (the 4-10 kW limitation of the BDI) in exchange for the whole-house backup. Not too much of an issue, as long as it works.

As noted by other posters, there are less expensive setups if you don't want/need the automatic restore. Using more traditional solar PV systems plus a manual interlock system can save some money on the setup.

But that automatic thing is nice. My home is protected by an ATS with 25 kW LP genset. When power goes out, you can count to 10 and the lights will be back on.

As long as you're not starving the spouse or kids by taking their food money, it'll give you good peace of mind, even if finances don't turn out how you'd like it.

I think you nailed it! Of course its nice to hear someone on my side so I might be biased lol

If I'm buying an $80k truck and I cant afford another $10k for the HIS because that would cause my kids to go hungry then I need to reevaluate alot more than my idea to buy a HIS haha

The piece of mind is that intangible that I think I'm after, with the smallest initial outlay as possible. If I knew I was going to stay in this place for the long hall then I'd go all in and get a much more robust system (I need a smart main panel in my life... like how is this not a more of thing instead of just Span IO???).

 

[Amps]

Ford used a fairly standardized CCS connector to harness the DC juice from the truck's battery, which means it theoretically could be used for another brand electric vehicle down the road... not something I'm counting on for my math

It may not be far down the road. Somebody could do a standards check now with a Hyundai/KIA/Genesis E-GMP car. If the Hyundai V2L adapter contains a small inverter using the CCS pins for power, what would happen if you plug in a larger inverter–HIS? Have an IONIQ 5 connected to the Ford Charge Station Pro and experience a grid failure. It may not work now, but I wouldn't bet against it working in the future. I'll bet Siemens didn't totally ignore a long-pending ISO 15118 when they designed the FCSP, same with Delta and Hyundai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118

Rabbit Hole:

https://www.switch-ev.com/knowledge...hicle-to-grid-integrating-evs-into-the-grid-2

 

[ResidualJinx]

It may not be far down the road. Somebody could do a standards check now with a Hyundai/KIA/Genesis E-GMP car. If the Hyundai V2L adapter contains a small inverter using the CCS pins for power, what would happen if you plug in a larger inverter–HIS? Have an IONIQ 5 connected to the Ford Charge Station Pro and experience a grid failure. It may not work now, but I wouldn't bet against it working in the future. I'll bet Siemens didn't totally ignore a long-pending ISO 15118 when they designed the FCSP, same with Hyundai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118

I'm totally with you, fingers crossed this is the case!

 

[ResidualJinx]

preach, I know I did. I think Ford nailed it and it's why I traded my dream car for it. It's not perfect but it's got a lot going for it.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

I've decided against SunRun and the setup. Very cost prohibitive and it locks you into Ford's architecture.

A manual transfer switch and an extension cable to the truck bed is the route I'm going.

Significantly less expensive, less headache, no worrying about tax rebates and qualifications, and most importantly...it doesn't become useless if I sell my truck or switch infrastructure.

Also, it works almost exactly the same (maybe just slightly less kWh output), just requires an extra step to plug in and manually flip the switch. For that kind of money, I can flip a switch.

Not to mention people have issues with the FCSP.

 

[ResidualJinx]

I've decided against SunRun and the setup. Very cost prohibitive and it locks you into Ford's architecture.

A manual transfer switch and an extension cable to the truck bed is the route I'm going.

Significantly less expensive, less headache, no worrying about tax rebates and qualifications, and most importantly...it doesn't become useless if I sell my truck or switch infrastructure.

Also, it works almost exactly the same (maybe just slightly less kWh output), just requires an extra step to plug in and manually flip the switch. For that kind of money, I can flip a switch.

Not to mention people have issues with the FCSP.

I think you captured one of the biggest drawbacks to the system and that's that it wont always work as intended. I'm not a fan of paying tax like most, so if the government offers me to spend my money on myself instead of giving it to who knows what, I'll choice to invest on myself.

Inadvertently you also highlighted the aspect that this stuff is no longer like simple trons flowing from point a to point b. All the computers involved are going to present challenges even to simple setups like the one you described. All the best with your install. I'm going with what I'd consider the simple button because as I mentioned, adding the tiny solar array is going to pay this system off (eventually) and a manual transfer switch and extension cable wont. I'm ok with complex, I'm not a fan of complicated... I think this system is the former and it takes alot of the hard work out of the hand of the consumer but I'm definitely going to be a test dummy being such an early adopter.

 

[ExCivilian]

There are a lot of assumptions in your model that needs addressing. I'm not sure where to start so I'll begin with the dollars.

The first thing to note is that you've stated that you've only lived in this house for two months and you're new to CA. You then listed your peak energy usage and extrapolated those costs for the rest of the year.

However, it's critical to note that CA has been in a record heat wave this week and the entire summer has been uncharacteristically hot. While it's true we can reasonably expect our summers to be hot like this in the future, it's unrealistic to expect the same energy demands to exist for the rest of the year. You can expect to pay that $90 surcharge for roughly two months and possibly extending to four but no more than that. Your $1K in projected savings is more realistically $150-300 dollars per year--if that.

You also haven't "banked" any electricity as a new customer but that will change throughout the year. We get sun all year round and you will be accruing credit as an NEM 2.0 customer with SCE at retail rates until your true-up at the end of the year when your overage will be paid out at wholesale rates. You may not see any savings at all.

It's questionable whether you can claim the tax credit on installing an HIS on a pre-existing system. While the new tax laws have included a provision to claim credit for adding to a pre-existing system, I'm not sure what the HIS would fall under for that credit. It seems like you're going to claim it as an additional inverter but does that entail removing the other inverter or running them side by side? I've claimed the credit for solar and EVSE back in 2016 and I don't believe either are once-per-lifetime credits. Regardless, the IRS will not allow double-dipping like you're suggesting although the way it's filed allows people to cheat. Whether you get audited is a different matter but the solar installers know the laws and their invoices will be written in a way that does not allow you to play fast and loose with which piece is an EVSE and which is part of the solar system proper. That's if I'm reading your post correctly that you were thinking of submitting the HIS install as part of your solar credit *and* also submitting it as part of your EVSE credit.

It might not net you anything to play those shenanigans because you'll need to deduct your federal credits from your state/local credits and, welcome to CA!, you will be taxed (by the state) on some of them For example, my 2016 install had a $1,000 federal credit that was subtracted from SCE's $1,500 rebate and I believe I was taxed on the remaining $500 as income I'm currently in the process again so I'll let you know in a couple months how that all plays out this time around.

Regardless, now we get to brass tacks of whether it's even necessary. I was born in San Diego and raised in SoCal my entire life. Power outages, despite what the alerts and news might lead you to believe, are rare and short-lived. While I'm certain I've experienced them in my life, they have been uneventful enough that I'd have to google them to remind myself of their impact. The last time SCE had a "rolling blackout" was in 2020, for example, and some customers only experienced 10 minutes of power loss while others experienced an hour of loss: https://www.sce.com/outage-center/outage-information/rotating-outages

I disagree these will become increasingly common in the future. Our governor is full steam ahead on electrifying CA and he's sitting on a dragon's lair level of resources to implement his grand plan.

Finally, we should consider what happens if you buy the system, need the system, and actually start to rely upon the system...that is, what can the system do for you in practical terms? The answer to that, unfortunately, is not much. If you use a manual interlock system via the outboard power you're going to be limited to 40A 30A, which basically means you can keep your lights and fridge on. If you use an HIS it's going to be 80A if I'm not mistaken 40A, which still doesn't get you much of anything. I don't think you'd be able to run your A/C with that. It's still daylight at 7pm in SoCal during the summer

You also need a new panel, which is almost certainly not included in that quote. You need something special that only feeds critical components if you want to use an automated system. Ask Sunrun about it and see if your quote doesn't double. Otherwise you're going outside, flipping off all the non-essential breakers, and then flipping the power on in which scenario you might as well use an interlock. And for that matter you might as well just use a generator for all of the use this entire system will get in CA. If you use an automated system without the critical load panel the whole house goes down...

I guess, I don't know I'm not an electrician BUT I am married so

tldr, your wife is right
(and that's a solid premise to start with in any situation, in my experience LOL)

EDIT: power output is limited to 30A/240v or 40A/240v depending on using ProPower outlets or CCS, respectively. One may be able to use 20A/120v simultaneously with the 30A/240v.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

It sounds like you've made up your mind and are looking for reassurance. Good luck with your HIS!

 

[cvalue13]

I'm definitely going to be a test dummy being such an early adopter.

which is why, if I was opting for the HIS, I would also be installing a generator port/transfer switch that can accept the truck’s ProPower. I’d expect this additional cost to be negligible, but add a secondary/backup option in an instance where something with the HIS goes pear shaped.

to me, the choice isn’t generator port or HIS, it’s generator port or HIS and generator port.

 

[ResidualJinx]

There are a lot of assumptions in your model that needs addressing. I'm not sure where to start so I'll begin with the dollars.

The first thing to note is that you've stated that you've only lived in this house for two months and you're new to CA. You then listed your peak energy usage and extrapolated those costs for the rest of the year.

However, it's critical to note that CA has been in a record heat wave this week and the entire summer has been uncharacteristically hot. While it's true we can reasonably expect our summers to be hot like this in the future, it's unrealistic to expect the same energy demands to exist for the rest of the year. You can expect to pay that $90 surcharge for roughly two months and possibly extending to four but no more than that. Your $1K in projected savings is more realistically $150-300 dollars per year--if that.

You also haven't "banked" any electricity as a new customer but that will change throughout the year. We get sun all year round and you will be accruing credit as an NEM 2.0 customer with SCE at retail rates until your true-up at the end of the year when your overage will be paid out at wholesale rates. You may not see any savings at all.

It's questionable whether you can claim the tax credit on installing an HIS on a pre-existing system. While the new tax laws have included a provision to claim credit for adding to a pre-existing system, I'm not sure what the HIS would fall under for that credit. It seems like you're going to claim it as an additional inverter but does that entail removing the other inverter or running them side by side? I've claimed the credit for solar and EVSE back in 2016 and I don't believe either are once-per-lifetime credits. Regardless, the IRS will not allow double-dipping like you're suggesting although the way it's filed allows people to cheat. Whether you get audited is a different matter but the solar installers know the laws and their invoices will be written in a way that does not allow you to play fast and loose with which piece is an EVSE and which is part of the solar system proper. That's if I'm reading your post correctly that you were thinking of submitting the HIS install as part of your solar credit *and* also submitting it as part of your EVSE credit.

It might not net you anything to play those shenanigans because you'll need to deduct your federal credits from your state/local credits and, welcome to CA!, you will be taxed (by the state) on some of them For example, my 2016 install had a $1,000 federal credit that was subtracted from SCE's $1,500 rebate and I believe I was taxed on the remaining $500 as income I'm currently in the process again so I'll let you know in a couple months how that all plays out this time around.

Regardless, now we get to brass tacks of whether it's even necessary. I was born in San Diego and raised in SoCal my entire life. Power outages, despite what the alerts and news might lead you to believe, are rare and short-lived. While I'm certain I've experienced them in my life, they have been uneventful enough that I'd have to google them to remind myself of their impact. The last time SCE had a "rolling blackout" was in 2020, for example, and some customers only experienced 10 minutes of power loss while others experienced an hour of loss: https://www.sce.com/outage-center/outage-information/rotating-outages

I disagree these will become increasingly common in the future. Our governor is full steam ahead on electrifying CA and he's sitting on a dragon's lair level of resources to implement his grand plan.

Finally, we should consider what happens if you buy the system, need the system, and actually start to rely upon the system...that is, what can the system do for you in practical terms? The answer to that, unfortunately, is not much. If you use a manual interlock system via the outboard power you're going to be limited to 40A, which basically means you can keep your lights and fridge on. If you use an HIS it's going to be 80A if I'm not mistaken, which still doesn't get you much of anything. I don't think you'd be able to run your A/C with that. It's still daylight at 7pm in SoCal during the summer

You also need a new panel, which is almost certainly not included in that quote. You need something special that only feeds critical components if you want to use an automated system. Ask Sunrun about it and see if your quote doesn't double. Otherwise you're going outside, flipping off all the non-essential breakers, and then flipping the power on in which scenario you might as well use an interlock. And for that matter you might as well just use a generator for all of the use this entire system will get in CA. If you use an automated system without the critical load panel the whole house goes down...

I guess, I don't know I'm not an electrician BUT I am married so

tldr, your wife is right
(and that's a solid premise to start with in any situation, in my experience LOL)

Well, well, well this is a whole different kind of response lol I want to take your value added inputs and work with them but their so many trigger words you used I feel compelled to address them first. Lets start with, hello Kettle, I'm the Pot. I said "Move back to Cali". See I too was born and raised in SoCal but not in San Diego where you get a breeze from the ocean, I've lived in the IE a good chunk of it where temps are easily 15-20-30 degrees above coastal cities. And as long as I remember the IE has been hot, like crazy hot and I cant image all this global warming stuff is empty talk and it's going to cool it down anytime soon. Oh and I've been married for a day or two now and I'm a fan of the right person is right, regardless of who wears what title lol

K so onto more realistic(ish) responses: Peak hours are going to cost what peak hours cost regardless of what season I use them. That's to say, it's not the AC or the temp that's causing them to be called peak hours, its the time of day where most houses go from pretty much empty to full and from generating to not so much because the sun is leaving, including mine. I concur that taking my one month and using it for a year's calculation would be doomed to be wrong but as that's all I had and you pulled a number out of thin air I'm going to go with something more than.

Next paragraph, I'm not talking about actually making money off the system, I'm talking about paying for the system at the same rate I'd pay SCE for those same kwh if I didn't have the system. Also I pay as I go, I dont get one bill a year, thems be rookie mistakes for net metering.

HIS is a fancy branded name that Ford came up with, I'd invite you to look a little further into what it entails. I've explained this a few times but real quick its a hybrid inverter that takes the place of a traditional one. It also includes the ability to auto switch from dead and connect to the truck. I get that it sounds suspect to claim it all as part of a solar system but then wouldn't Tesla's whole solar model come into question or putting a roof in conjunction with solar and claiming the entire cost. I say that to agree, in the end I wrote what Sunrun gave me in writing (the tax credit they said I could claim) and cavet'd heavily the other credit. The HIS system is going to be a whole new system (new panels, new inverter, etc) but that will tie in with an existing system, hopefully removing the old inverter and only using the old panels, as the delta's inverter has multiple MMPTs.

Shenanigans are what I live for and I'll play any rule I can that's WITHIN the laws, because that's how I roll, Audit me IRS... again! lol

Been here two months, and I've had 4 outages... I hear your anecdotal experiences and raise you mine.

I appreciate your positive viewpoint on California, but I don't share it, sorry. I hope for the best and plan for the worst And most if not all politicians disappointment eventually, so I'm definitely not counting on this one to solve these problems.

Your last paragraph on the topic was the most value added of the topic and I too would like to know more about how the amperage of the system supports a whole home setup but like you I'm not an electrician. I do know it says powers your whole home for up to three days and they didn't put an asterisk saying as long as you power off X, Y and Z or critical loads panel necessary. Now that's not to say companies aren't shady and would do something like this but just hasn't been said. I'm happy to play the guinea pig because as you keep forgetting this feature isn't the part that's paying itself off, its the nice to have part. Also, I'm happy to walk away from all of this if they say hey JK, it's gonna be another $12k because you need whole different panel.

I'm confident my numbers are WAY rosy and ROI will take much longer then I'd like. At the same time, the question remains, am I looking at an additional $2-3k to add an automatic transfer switch, OEM integrated system that's factory built to function together? And if so, I've spent way more then that on much more frivolous things than this... have you heard of Disneyland???

tl.dr: Less ivory tower and more insightful questions would be great but thanks for stopping by!

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