Invited After Transferring to ZEV State Dealer

[EVTruckGuy]

With respect to buying the Rivian... I'd ask you genuinely... is that because you think the Rivian suits you better? or is it really a situation where you'd rather be in a Lighting, but are out of principle going to buy a Rivian over the reservation process?

Both.

My decision was not between the Ford and Rivian trucks. I am deciding between the Lightning and the R1S (SUV). I like the idea of having an SUV with 3 rows of seats. I suspect it will drive a little better too given it's smaller footprint, 4 motors, and adjustable ride height due to the air suspension.

The Lightning and R1S we're close to a tie prior to the ordering ridiculousness. I was leaning a little more toward the Ford because I know I can get service anywhere. Service won't be as easy with Rivian. There are plenty of other advantages of choosing the Lightning as well, but the Rivian has advantages too.

I already have an F150 which was paid off years ago. If I keep the F15p and buy the Rivian R1S I would have the benefit of a really nice SUV with top of the line performance as well as the ability to drive my existing truck when I need the utility which can only be offered by a pickup.

I also really hate the way dealerships complicate the car buying process. The ordering process for the Lightning just increased my preexisting disdain for the traditional car buying process. It really made me not want to buy another Ford.

I don't have to worry about dealers, markups, prioritization with Rivian.

I don't think Rivian is perfect, which is why I'm not ready to cancel my Lightning resevation yet.

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[EaglesPDX]

but going strictly by timestamp isn't really right either.

It's the only way to go if it is a reservation.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

It's the only way to go if it is a reservation.

I agree. This is how dealerships have previously handled most vehicle orders. It's not like the Lightning is the first vehicle people ever ordered in advance, so I don't understand why Ford felt the need to make the process more complex than it needed to be.

I cannot figure out why Ford even took reservations if nearly the entire first year of production would be taken up by orders of people given special priority to skip the line, this rendering our reservations moot.

 

[jfried]

Both.

My decision was not between the Ford and Rivian trucks. I am deciding between the Lightning and the R1S (SUV). I like the idea of having an SUV with 3 rows of seats. I suspect it will drive a little better too given it's smaller footprint, 4 motors, and adjustable ride height due to the air suspension.

I already have an F150 which was paid off years ago. If I keep the F15p and buy the Rivian R1S I would have the benefit of a really nice SUV with top of the line performance as well as the ability to drive my existing truck when I need the utility which can only be offered by a pickup.

I also really hate the way dealerships complicate the car buying process. The ordering process for the Lightning just increased my preexisting disdain for the traditional car buying process. It really made me not want to buy another Ford.

I don't have to worry about dealers, markups, prioritization with Rivian.

I don't think Rivian is perfect, which is why I'm not ready to cancel my Lightning resevation yet.

That is a reality that Ford needs to work on -- but that's not new, and really, somewhat independent from the lightning.

Ford doesn't have the "luxury" of starting fresh like Rivian with respect to legal arrangements, but they also don't have the "problems" of starting fresh like Rivian, like no economies of scale, concerns over consumer confidence, etc.

Pre-pandemic, Ford sold 2.5m vehicles a year in the USA....they could not have done that without their dealership network and customers who are used to dealing with a dealership. I'm sure their goal is to continue to sell upwards of that amount once they can produce it; and recognize that the last thing they want to do is piss off loyal ford buyers, who would buy the Lightning and continue to buy ICE vehicles too, by giving all of the first vehicles to people who were faster with a mouse, or more in tune with rumours than they were.

Yes, they've got work to do on the dealership experience -- it's something that people in North America universally hate, across brands, but it's much bigger than the Lightning.

It's the only way to go if it is a reservation.

It's really not. It's only the "only way to go" for people who "that works for".

Timestamp does not work for the Ford buyer that is just accustomed to doing things with his dealership.

 

[jfried]

I agree. This is how dealerships have previously handled most vehicle orders. It's not like the Lightning is the first vehicle people ever ordered in advance, so I don't understand why Ford felt the need to make the process more complex than it needed to be.

I cannot figure out why Ford even took reservations if nearly the entire first year of production would be taken up by orders of people given special priority to skip the line, this rendering our reservations moot.

Not necessarily.

When a new vehicle is released, generally the dealers know about it before the consumer. Sometimes it's the consumer informing the dealer about it.

That being said, if a dealer has a relationship with somebody that wants one, he could certainly get them in without necessarily telling the "new customer".

The whole concept of reservations being taken online is fairly new, especially for Ford. I don't recall if they did it with the MME; or if the Bronco was the first foray into that.

 

[Mike Dubs]

Congrats to those who were able to order whether you had an early reservation or you managed to jump ahead - I don't blame anyone for using their relationships or time/energy to find the right dealer.

For the rest of us - we are in a market and if we don't get a 22 model, we decide on a '23 or something else. The bigger issue is the supply chain for chips and the uncertainty of being able to buy anything.

My old Volvo is worth babying while I wait and consider options including the Rivian R1s.

 

[jazzmanmonty]

Perhaps I should have re-phrased my point...

We can agree that the only people legitimately PO'ed on this site are day 1 reservation holders.

How many of them are PO'ed to the point of it actually affecting a future purchasing decision?

But what about the guy that has been a loyal Ford buyer for the last 20 years, who's "ford relationship" exists entirely with the dealership.. and when he wants a vehicle, he calls? Should he be told "sorry, we can't do anything for you"? I know if I had a longstanding relationship with a ford dealer, I'd be pissed.

And more importantly, of the people who are at that point -- what is worse? PO'ing somebody who reserved on day 1? or PO'ing somebody who is a loyal ford buyer that has a great relationship with their dealership.

The ones that reserved early and still didn't get an invite yet might be PO'd, but probably to not to the point where they abandon Ford. Once they get an invite, all will be forgotten.

The customers that will really leave are the ones that ordered (or about to order) and ended up getting screwed over. The stress of dealing with dealer antics (no straight forward answers, lied to about no adm, then after dealer accepting, they get a $10k+ADM thrown in their face, etc) and Corporate unwillingness to help, I honestly believe them when they say they are done with Ford because i would be too. Maybe not for life, but until the wounds heal from all the b.s and the market changed in the buyers favor.

I get the loyalty thing, but forget about this whole Lightning fiasco for a minute. In general, we live in WAY different times than we are used to (pre-internet and pre-amazon). Back in the 90's-2000s, my parents, whole family, and I purchased Ford's from one salesperson at one dealer. Maybe 40 cars over 15 years. There was no b.s. and loyalty worked both ways. At that time, dealers still sold locally and it was rare to get a customer outside of maybe a 20 mile radius. Fast forward to now. Are brains are re-programmed by the internet. I have no loyalty anymore because my brain has been reprogrammed to find the best deal I can using technology. The salesperson that used to be loyal and care doesn't care anymore because via technology they get online orders from around the country. So to play the loyalty card, ya it may still matter in small towns or some other circumstances, but consider it extinct by at least 95% of the population. The people I feel bad for are the older ones that haven't adapted to our technological world, walk into a store thinking Salesman Jim still cares, only to have their heart broken or a heart attack from sticker shock.

You asked if its worse to PO a day one-er or the loyal guy. In the perfect world, neither should have to be PO'd because the customer is always right. But in the real world, honestly nobody cares if either one is pissed anymore. Corporate only cares about supply/demand, quarterly figures and making sure they are evolving. They know if either pissed guy doesn't buy, someone else will. When their hand is forced they'll make an example of one dealer just to make headlines and then back to business as usual. That goes for all corporate not just Ford. Until the market shifts back to the buyers favor, they won't care either. MAYBE when the buyer has the upper hand again, loyalty will matter. But with manufacturers utilizing tech to build on-demand instead of stockpiling then clearancing, it may never go back to how it was in the good ol' days.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I cannot figure out why Ford even took reservations

To see what models people would order and gauge interest in the project. As with Tesla, Ford got a nice PR boost from the reservations. Unlike Tesla, Ford then just tossed the reservations out.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The whole concept of reservations being taken online is fairly new, especially for Ford. I don't recall if they did it with the MME

They did and kept to it. I was early and mine came in to dealer pretty much in reservation order. The dealer gave me my deposit back since they had people lined up for the vehicles. I had also put in a deposit on the F150EV.

That's why it was surprising to see Ford not honor the F150 reservations in similar fashion.

Have an early Ariya reservation due this year as the Tesla will be hitting 100k. See if they stick to the reservations. If so, I'll get that for next three years at which point should be other EV's capable of towing the boat. Could probably get two more years out of the Tesla as it would still have 240 +/- range based on current battery degradation trends. Silverado has GM's Cruise which is the top rated ADAS system.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The ones that reserved early and still didn't get an invite yet might be PO'd, but probably to not to the point where they abandon Ford.

Will probably steer clear of Ford in future. Nice to be able to use buying power to reward ethical businesses or at least not reward unethical ones.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It's really not.

Then it's not a reservation. Dinner for two at eight. Come back tomorrow at 12. Fair to call it unethical.

 

[astricklin]

Bad news travels fast though. Farley’s musings re ADM were widely reported, and even though he, correctly, called out the dealers, those same 99% of customers now think “Ford=upcharge”. Probably not a good time for more bad publicity. However, Ford’s definitely learning new lessons here, and that is always a good thing.

I meant the reservation system and the prioritization and all that. I do think the general public is aware that most all new cars are being heavily marked up right now.

 

[RickLightning]

Bad news travels fast though. Farley’s musings re ADM were widely reported, and even though he, correctly, called out the dealers, those same 99% of customers now think “Ford=upcharge”. Probably not a good time for more bad publicity. However, Ford’s definitely learning new lessons here, and that is always a good thing.

Disagree.

The problem with forums is that people are talking in an empty room and no one is listening. The 99% of customers that have no clue what's going on also have no clue what ADM is, nor what Farley said. No, they aren't thinking about it at all, but here in this echo chamber you and we might be.

The reality is that the majority of consumers are clueless.

The reality is that many of them aren't very smart either.

Ford, and other car makers, can do this day in and day out and see no impact. Sure, Bob from this forum might get pissed and move to another brand, but Jerry will leave that brand for Ford.

There is no such thing as "widely reported" today. It's all social media noise, and most tune it out or are blissfully unaware.

 

[jfried]

The ones that reserved early and still didn't get an invite yet might be PO'd, but probably to not to the point where they abandon Ford. Once they get an invite, all will be forgotten.

The customers that will really leave are the ones that ordered (or about to order) and ended up getting screwed over. The stress of dealing with dealer antics (no straight forward answers, lied to about no adm, then after dealer accepting, they get a $10k+ADM thrown in their face, etc) and Corporate unwillingness to help, I honestly believe them when they say they are done with Ford because i would be too. Maybe not for life, but until the wounds heal from all the b.s and the market changed in the buyers favor.

I get the loyalty thing, but forget about this whole Lightning fiasco for a minute. In general, we live in WAY different times than we are used to (pre-internet and pre-amazon). Back in the 90's-2000s, my parents, whole family, and I purchased Ford's from one salesperson at one dealer. Maybe 40 cars over 15 years. There was no b.s. and loyalty worked both ways. At that time, dealers still sold locally and it was rare to get a customer outside of maybe a 20 mile radius. Fast forward to now. Are brains are re-programmed by the internet. I have no loyalty anymore because my brain has been reprogrammed to find the best deal I can using technology. The salesperson that used to be loyal and care doesn't care anymore because via technology they get online orders from around the country. So to play the loyalty card, ya it may still matter in small towns or some other circumstances, but consider it extinct by at least 95% of the population. The people I feel bad for are the older ones that haven't adapted to our technological world, walk into a store thinking Salesman Jim still cares, only to have their heart broken or a heart attack from sticker shock.

You asked if its worse to PO a day one-er or the loyal guy. In the perfect world, neither should have to be PO'd because the customer is always right. But in the real world, honestly nobody cares if either one is pissed anymore. Corporate only cares about supply/demand, quarterly figures and making sure they are evolving. They know if either pissed guy doesn't buy, someone else will. When their hand is forced they'll make an example of one dealer just to make headlines and then back to business as usual. That goes for all corporate not just Ford. Until the market shifts back to the buyers favor, they won't care either. MAYBE when the buyer has the upper hand again, loyalty will matter. But with manufacturers utilizing tech to build on-demand instead of stockpiling then clearancing, it may never go back to how it was in the good ol' days.

Completely agree with your post. I think that's why Ford sent that threatening letter about "games", but stopped short of going after "above MSRP" deals, and went so far as to enable it on their online ordering platform.

That being said, you're also correct, the customer driven buying pattern is absolutely changing... from an in-person to online experience. I recall reading an article a few years ago how car buying is the experience that americans dread more than going to the dentist or something like that. This a challenge that plagues not just Ford, but all legacy automakers and not really tied to the Lightning. Ford only seems to be in the spotlight a little more because of the interesting & compelling products that they've released in the last couple of years (Bronco, Lightning, MME).

That being said, even if they could instantly switch to Tesla's model from a legal perspective, doesn't mean they would. Ford sells many times the amount of vehicles that Tesla does in a year, and an infinite amount more "unexciting" / "less-aspirational" vehicles. If all Ford did was sell Broncos, Lightnings, and GT500 Mustangs, then no, they wouldn't need the dealer.... but that isn't the model they're in.

 

[jfried]

Then it's not a reservation. Dinner for two at eight. Come back tomorrow at 12. Fair to call it unethical.

I don't believe Ford ever said we are going in strict order of reservations.

While you may have observed the MMEs coming in rough order of reservation, that doesn't mean it necessarily was done that way. There was just a lot less fanfare / demand for the MME than there is the Lightning.

I don't pretend to know what the actual process was for the MME, but it wouldn't have suprised me at all if somebody called up their dealer and said I REALLY WANT ONE, that they would have figured out how to get them one even if they weren't first in line.

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