So... How about them gas prices?

[LightningShow]

I am all for electric vehicles and I think it will be interesting learning how people plan trips, especially towing. I wish more people realized they are not clean, emissions free vehicles though. Batteries are an issue and they are charged in 80 percent of the cases with coal.
Does anyone know what the carbon offset is? Is it less, more? I always heard the Prius was an ecological disaster, is that true of Ford EV's?

EVs are emissions free at the point of energy consumption. Consolidating emissions to one source (ie power plant) makes it far, far easier to reduce the impact of emissions. Going to an electric transportation infrastructure is only one half of a low emissions. The other half is changing the emissions at the power plant level, that could be using renewables but it could also be retrofitting carbon-based plants with carbon sequestration technology (huge investments in this right now). But either way you need the vehicles to be zero emissions for the whole thing to work.

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[BCM]

I was thinking about this today. The Lightning is rolling out at a perfect time in history.

We have 1500-mile road trip planned in late May. Assuming $5/gallon gas, it would cost about $400 (@18 mpg) if we took our Ram 1500 Hemi eTorque and $1000 (@8 mpg) if we also towed our RV.

The same trip in the Lightning would cost $60 (@440 Wh/mile) without the trailer and $230(@950 Wh/mile) with the trailer per A Better Routeplanner.

Our build week is 5/2. If the Lightning arrives in time we'll be driving that for the trip. Otherwise, we'll probably just take the I-Pace and leave the camper and Ram 1500 at home.

Yeah, just take 3 days to get there though. By the time you pay for hotel rooms and extra meals it’s probably a wash.

 

[LightningShow]

Everybody thinks the electric vehicles is going to solve our problems and be cheap. No one seems to be remembering how the infrastructure of all the roads is paid for by taxes on usually gas. (motor fuel tax)

The powers that be just haven't instituted the charges that are going to have to be paid to keep the lights on so to speak.

Go solar now. You're 100% correct that they'll figure out a way to get the taxes out of you, and they'll most likely do it via utilities. Reduce your reliance on industries they control.

 

[BCM]

My post is a question mostly. I should have put "fossil fuel" rather than coal.

That number would be ever higher if your talking just fossil fuels. I’m all for electric once the infrastructure is set up to handle 2 plus EV’s in every garage. Until then, for those that preach green, the hybrid is the only real way to go.

 

[kevdog0710]

EVs are emissions free at the point of energy consumption. Consolidating emissions to one source (ie power plant) makes it far, far easier to reduce the impact of emissions. Going to an electric transportation infrastructure is only one half of a low emissions. The other half is changing the emissions at the power plant level, that could be using renewables but it could also be retrofitting carbon-based plants with carbon sequestration technology (huge investments in this right now). But either way you need the vehicles to be zero emissions for the whole thing to work.

Its an interesting conversation to say the least

 

[Mtnman1]

Remember the oil shocks from OPEC in the 1970s? The demand for consumers to move away from big car boats with V8's to little Honda Civics that sipped on fuel was a pretty big sea change.

I am willing to bet that the current price shocks in oil are about to help accelerate the demand for EV's in a pretty big way.

What do you think?

I think votes have consequenses. Hope folks start to realize this next election.

 

[gtotco]

I am all for electric vehicles and I think it will be interesting learning how people plan trips, especially towing. I wish more people realized they are not clean, emissions free vehicles though. Batteries are an issue and they are charged in 80 percent of the cases with coal.
Does anyone know what the carbon offset is? Is it less, more? I always heard the Prius was an ecological disaster, is that true of Ford EV's?

Good website for carbon equivalencies.

https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore

One interesting thing I learned from it is here in Colorado where we have a pretty dirty grid a Prius Prime is actually more carbon efficient than a Model 3 (driving mostly highway which I do). I found another site that does it as MPG equivalencies for carbon and Model 3 is in the 50-55mpg range which tracks with the M3. It’s also what I used to get highway in my TDI Golf but clearly that had different issues when it came to emissions… I could get low 40s in my GTI though without much effort and I suspect some civics can push 50 highway with some attention paid to them.

I will be curious where the Lightning clocks in my guess is probably somewhere in the 30-35MPG range in terms of carbon equivalency here, at least highway (probably better City). For people who live places with cleaner grids (especially a lot of hydro or nuclear) guessing it’s better.

Don’t get me wrong these things are definitely cleaner it isn’t really a panacea though until we do something about actually producing energy.

 

[TF1000]

I always heard the Prius was an ecological disaster, is that true of Ford EV's?

I think that was disputed many years ago. The issue was the nickel used in the batteries. What was ignored was that other cars use a lot of nickel (chrome and stainless use nickel) plus the Prius batteries were/are recyclable. There was also a nickel mine in Canada that polluted a lot but Prius haters forgot to mention the mine had closed before Prius's were even made.

We have about 300,000 miles on our Gen2 Prius. I calculated we saved over 6,000 gallons of gas compared to if we had still been using the SAAB that we had been driving.

 

[kevdog0710]

I think that was disputed many years ago. The issue was the nickel used in the batteries. What was ignored was that other cars use a lot of nickel (chrome and stainless use nickel) plus the Prius batteries were/are recyclable. There was also a nickel mine in Canada that polluted a lot but Prius haters forgot to mention the mine had closed before Prius's were even made.

We have about 300,000 miles on our Gen2 Prius. I calculated we saved over 6,000 gallons of gas compared to if we had still been using the SAAB that we had been driving.

I never understood the haters, they probably made their decision on emotion alone. I don't know ow much about EV's at all.
Your fuel calculation is something I do. I have a work car, its a 2006 Mazda 3. That car has saved me 1500 plus gallons of fuel the last 3 years.

 

[vandy1981]

I think votes have consequenses. Hope folks start to realize this next election.

Agreed, we really need to elect politicians that understand how important it is to wean our economy of of fossil fuels.

 

[Blainestang]

That number would be ever higher if your talking just fossil fuels.

Not higher than the original "80% coal" estimate. The total US breakdown is ~61% fossil fuels... and falling.

I’m all for electric once the infrastructure is set up to handle 2 plus EV’s in every garage.

Why does the infrastructure have to be set up for something that won't happen for ~20 years in order to buy it today? Even if 50% of *new* car sales are EVs by 2030, typical car lifetime is ~12 years, so it will be a LONG time before the whole US fleet is anywhere near 100% EV. Not buying an EV now because the grid isn't ready for 100% EVs would be like refusing to buy clothes that fit you now because in 10 years you *might* be fatter.

Until then, for those that preach green, the hybrid is the only real way to go.

Why? Why would I buy a hybrid when an EV can charge at my solar-powered house and works well for all the ways in which I use it?

Because the grid isn't designed for a theoretical overnight switch to 100% EVs that is definitely not going to happen that way?

 

[RickLightning]

Gas prices are set to stay at around $4.00 permanently $5.50 in California. They always go up and never come down to what it was, even when the price of a barrel goes down. There is always some excuse: refinery closed, summer gas, winter gas, someone farted…..

Whatever.

In fact, that's not true. https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts

 

[RickLightning]

How long would the trip take with the Ram, and how much longer would it take with the Lightning -- recharging time? Serious question, I'm not trying do be a toolbag.

Absent the reality that charging a truck towing a trailer, with today's infrastructure, will likely require detaching and then reconnecting the trailer at nearly every charging stop, an EV trip takes longer than an ICE trip.

Of course there are many variables, including the range of each vehicle. My F-150 with a 36 gallon tank can go close to 700 miles between fuel stops. Put in the 23 gallon tank, and that would be only 437 miles.

One way to do a comparison is to plan a trip using GoogleMaps. Then, figure out how often you need to refuel the ICE vehicle, and add bathroom breaks. I have an upcoming trip, and I did just that (see link below).

Summary -

Depending on the length of trip, EV charging adds 20% or more to your trip length.

Taking my F-150 on a 1,300 mile trip, with $4.00 gas, would cost $275. Taking the Mach-E is planned at 1/3 the cost.

For my 650 mile trip, GoogleMaps shows 10:21 driving time. Add in one gas stop, and 2 bathroom breaks, and 11 hours is a good number to use.

Now, add in EV stops. First, you need to add in the mileage and time to go to/from EV recharging locations. One stop on the trip requires a 22 mile roundtrip detail. The others are 4 - 7 minute round trip detours. So now we're at 10:59 driving time, and 662 miles.

Now you have to add in time to/from each EV fueling stop. This isn't the miles driven time, this is the 3 traffic lights to get into the Walmart parking lot, and find the EV charger. Could be another 10 - 20 minutes per stop.

Assuming the charging location has an available spot (we've never had an issue in two trips totaling 4,800 miles, now it's time to charge. Cold weather will slow things down, as will a charger having issues.

This current trip is estimated at 13:52 including charging by one app (ABRP - A Better Route Planner), and 14:33 via Ford Navigation.

So 11 hours with ICE, 14 or 14.5 with EV. That's a 27% or 32% increase in time.

One way to speed things up on a multiday trip is to stay at a hotel that has level 2 charging, and get 100% charge, for free, overnight. Saves charging time AND gives you some extra driving time (100% charge vs. 80 - 90% from a high speed charger).

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...tual-is-when-this-is-all-said-and-done.15255/

Keep in mind that cold temperatures affect EVs much more than ICE vehicles. While winter gas and cold temps can give you a 20% hit on an F-150, cold temps can take 40%, or more, from an EV. In addition, a cold battery and a cold DC charger run much slower than a warm battery with a warm charger.

Here's another comparison, actual results, F-150 driving a trip vs. Mach-E.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...uch-time-does-charging-add.12604/#post-307469

 

[Blainestang]

Depending on the length of trip, EV charging adds 20% or more to your trip length.

Good data/examples.

Just adding on: There are so many big variables here. I've done ~450 mile day trips where an EV adds basically 0% to the trip. We would stop 2-3 times anyway and rarely keep it <20 mins anyway with kids, so the net difference is ~0 minutes.

I've done trips where it's more like 100% time added because the car has short range and slow DCFC rate, and the route/infrastructure meant we had to use 240V charging at one stop.

So, it really depends on the car/truck, the route/infrastructure, one's driving style (road warrior vs stopping frequently with kids or whatever), etc.

 

[Ronin1973]

Gas prices are set to stay at around $4.00 permanently $5.50 in California. They always go up and never come down to what it was, even when the price of a barrel goes down.

This is not true. Back in 08, gas prices got up to $4.10 average...came back down. It will do the same again.

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