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The Levine Twitter parade continues: 134 kW @ 65% SOC

adoublee

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Why is there zero reason?
My opinion is that it is because he is a flipper not a buyer. Constantly claiming vehicle is being outclassed. Before it was by Rivian. Now he is including Hyundai that has a compelling vehicle in the Ioniq 5 and has the advantage of 800V architecture, but still isn't achieving anywhere near advertised DCFC charge rates in colder temperatures most the US experiences - and doesn't precondition battery to charge at optimal temperature.
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gorwell

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My opinion is that it is because he is a flipper not a buyer
I prefer the Tech in the Rivian, but I am 99% keeping the F150L. It's more practical for my use case due to having a bigger bed and more interior space.

Also, I don't care that much about charge speed for my use case w/ the truck, so it's not a problem for me. However, if they did actually have up-to-date charging, it would 100% make for a more useful truck for everyone and improve the longevity.


Constantly claiming vehicle is being outclassed.
Facts are facts. Ford has underdeveloped charging tech.

Rivian's very first car ever developed has better charging tech.



Ioniq 5 and has the advantage of 800V architecture, but still isn't achieving anywhere near advertised DCFC charge rates in colder temperatures in most the US experiences
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Cold Weather DC Fast Charge Analysis

https://insideevs.com/news/578869/hyundai-ioniq-5-charging-analysis/

Session #1: 10% to 80% on a 150 kW DC fast charger at 23° F (-5° C)
Session #2: 10% to 80% on a 350 kW DC fast charger at 28° F (-2° C)
Session #3: 0% to 100% on a 350 kW DC fast charger at 32° F (0° C)

In all three sessions, it took us exactly 30 minutes to go from 10% to 80%, 12 minutes (66%) longer than Hyundai's promised 18 minutes.


Hyundai's crippled cold charging is still 10+ minutes faster than Mach-e. It takes Mach-e 40 minutes to go from 20-80%.

Could it be improved, definitely -- it needs to precondition the battery to help achieve the max speeds in cold temperature.

Also, it's not "most the US experiences "... Ideal temps are 60F+. Then, it's subpar only in the winter ~3-4 months.
 
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vandy1981

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Or is just taking more risk with their cells. We are talking about Ford, versus a start-up here...
There's also negotiation between the battery supplier and the vehicle manufacturer because they'd probably be at least partly liable for battery issues (see LG and the Chevy Bolt).

SKI (the F150L supplier) may be more conservative than Samsung SDI (the Rivian Supplier).
 

gorwell

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Or is just taking more risk with their cells. We are talking about Ford, versus a start-up here...
So Rivian and.....

Hyundai/Kia
Tesla
GM (Hummer)
Porsche
Audi
Lucid

are taking more risk w/ their cells? Or is it that they just have more advanced charging tech? I think the latter.

Ford has 1 real EV in it's portfolio (Mach-e). It's not exactly a EV powerhouse, unless you want to count the Focus EV and the Ranger EV


SKI (the F150L supplier) may be more conservative than Samsung SDI (the Rivian Supplier).
SKI makes Ioniq 5 batteries as well.
 

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Sam James

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So Rivian and.....

Hyundai/Kia
Tesla
GM (Hummer)
Porsche
Audi
Lucid

are taking more risk w/ their cells? Or is it that they just have more advanced charging tech? I think the latter.

Ford has 1 real EV in it's portfolio (Mach-e). It's not exactly a EV powerhouse, unless you want to count the Focus EV and the Ranger EV




SKI makes Ioniq 5 batteries as well.
I don't think its a matter of Ford "can't" add it or "doesn't have the tech". Porsche and Audi are VW marquees and have the faster charging, but my ID.4 doesn't. Its likely all about cost, risk, and the necessity when 50kw (not a typo) stations are still the fastest in large swaths of the country. Why add (possible) extra wear to the battery on their first go at this and risk liability issues?

Outside of Hyundai/Kia you're listing premium brands that customers would expect to offer premium features. Hyundai/Kia also have had their own battery issues in the past.

Looking forward to when faster charging is added, but I think saying Ford shouldn't be proud of what they have going for their first EV truck is jumping the gun a bit. We haven't seen charging tests yet and we don't know what updates they can/can't push out. As has been stated too, the faster chargers haven't proved to be that much better yet and won't matter in many areas yet (looking at you, Maine).
 

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Facts are facts. Ford has underdeveloped charging tech.

Rivian's very first car ever developed has better charging tech.
We don't know for certain Rivian has better charging tech. Ford's could be the same, 500A/450v, but they are choosing to limit the max amps to 345 A or lowering the max voltage because they are afraid of battery degradation and having to replace batteries under warranty. At the end of the day, Rivian will have a better charging curve most likely.
 

gorwell

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Its likely all about cost, risk, and the necessity when 50kw (not a typo) stations are still the fastest in large swaths of the country

There are certainly dead spots, but most Major routes the US have 150kW+ charging and that is going to improve each Month.

I'm pretty sure I can drive from California to New York and hit a 150kW+ charger for every charge along the way.

I didn't check every one, but I spot checked most and they were all at least 150kW:

Ford F-150 Lightning The Levine Twitter parade continues: 134 kW @ 65% SOC 1649889419744


Even the stops in middle of nowhere Nevada and Missouri were 350kW.

This is all w/ just Electrify America.
 

Sam James

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There are certainly dead spots, but most Major routes the US have 150kW+ charging and that is going to improve each Month.

I'm pretty sure I can drive from California to New York and hit a 150kW+ charger for every charge along the way.

I didn't check every one, but I spot checked most and they were all at least 150kW:

1649889419744.png


Even the stops in middle of nowhere Nevada and Missouri were 350kW.

This is all w/ just Electrify America.
Not disputing that, I'm just saying 350kW is still pretty rare or only has one or two plugs. 150 is a soft ceiling right now for interstate travel. There are portions, like Maine, where a huge chunk of the state is really a max of 50. When the second generation Lightning comes around I imagine the infrastructure will justify 800v. For now though, Ford hasn't really failed as far as we know. They're in-line with non-premium brands.
 
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vandy1981

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The good news is we'll know the answers to a lot of these Level 3 charging questions very soon!

Also, don't forget that Rivian has slower Level 2 charging speeds than the Lightning and (currently) doesn't have V2H capability. In that sense, the F150L is much more advanced than the Rivian.
 

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(!) Mach-e has had 150kW peak charging for 2 years, has that gotten any better? The charging curve did, but it's still slow. And, the charging curve only got better after 80% which isn't (shouldn't be) a common use-case.

Plus, Mach-e only peaks at it's 150kW between like 3-6% state of charge. It's 150kw Peak in name only.

Look at where the Mach-e sits for charging speeds, it's the lowest average between 10-80%. It's even slower than the ID4 which is known for being slow and it only peaks at ~125kW

1649880239976.png


Ford clearly is underdeveloped in charging tech.

The Lightning charging is an improvement over the Mach-e, but it still trails it's competitors.
I'm not sure why you posted all of this about the MME. It doesn't address anything WRT why you think software doesn't affect charging rates. We're not talking about the MME, but since you mentioned it, the F150L ER has a battery that's 50% larger than the MME's largest offering. What you really want to compare for charging speeds is not specifically kw, but the C rate. The MME averages 1.06C from 10-80%. An equivalent C rating for the F150L would yield an average charge rate of 138kw. That's remarkably flat if it peaks at 150kw, and seeing it still at 135kw @ 65% shows that the charge rate is likely flat as a board. To say there is "zero reason" that there is room to ramp up charging rates at lower SoC ignores the reasonable possibility that the C rate is currently artificially low. A 131kwh battery is massive, and even at 200kw, heat does not get in the way until the battery is much closer to a full charge.
 

FlasherZ

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Don't know where you're getting this data, but my two Tesla cars don't line up with the curves you have in this graph.

Just last week our 2016 Model X Signature P100DL charged at 150kW to 50%, where it was charging at ~120 kW and then slowly ramped down. My 2018 Model S 100D tends to have about the same character.

Here's what I know from 350k miles in 4 different Tesla vehicles over the past decade: most of this stuff can be tuned in software. There is a hardware limit (2012 Tesla rev A packs had to be limited at 90 kW, Model S/X can't do the 200+ kW that Model 3/Y can, etc.), but the curve itself can be modified. For example, for the longest time our X could only charge at 120 kW max until Tesla turned up the juice to 135 kW, then to 150 kW.

So let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I'm willing to bet that Ford has the ability - especially with a 131 kW pack - to get higher rate charging in place and needs to feel comfortable with real-world data first.
 

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So Rivian and.....

Hyundai/Kia
Tesla
GM (Hummer)
Porsche
Audi
Lucid

are taking more risk w/ their cells? Or is it that they just have more advanced charging tech? I think the latter.

Ford has 1 real EV in it's portfolio (Mach-e). It's not exactly a EV powerhouse, unless you want to count the Focus EV and the Ranger EV




SKI makes Ioniq 5 batteries as well.
What about the Transit EV?
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