White House announces new standards and major progress for NEVI

[Texas Dan]

WOW! Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars to be spent on charging infrastructure before 2030, most within five years.

New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers

There is so much information in the announcement that it's hard to pick a place to start. One paragraph really stood out for me is that it appears that Tesla will be forced to support non-Tesla EV charging at some if not all of their Superchargers by the end of 2024. The progress of most of the major developments in charging infrastructure we have read about lately is in the anoucement.

The world as we know it is definitely changing and this announcement is a good road map to what the transportation future is going to look like. If anyone is looking for a career for themselves, their children or their grandchildren I think this announcement would be a good read. It's quite clear that anyone that wants to build a career in either the EVs themselves or the infrastructure supporting them, the future will be bright.

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[RickLightning]

[scratches head]

This is the same info that you commented on days ago, but you weren't thrilled about Tesla's performance then. https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...rs-to-all-ev-by-end-of-2024.14553/post-302166

It's not "some if not all", it's about 20%, and they aren't "forced", they wanted federal money so they agreed to it.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...harger-requirements-to-receive-funding.14557/

 

[Texas Dan]

[scratches head]

This is the same info that you commented on days ago, but you weren't thrilled about Tesla's performance then. https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...rs-to-all-ev-by-end-of-2024.14553/post-302166

It's not "some if not all", it's about 20%, and they aren't "forced", they wanted federal money so they agreed to i.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...harger-requirements-to-receive-funding.14557/

That previous thread focused too much on Tesla and not enough on the many major points of the announcement. You can say that Tesla agreed to supporting non-Tesla charging if you want but I say Tesla never would be doing it out of the goodness of their collective heart. BTW, nowhere in the HW announcement does it mention 20% of Superchargers.

 

[RickLightning]

That previous thread focused too much on Tesla and not enough on the many major points of the announcement. You can say that Tesla agreed to supporting non-Tesla charging if you want but I say Tesla never would be doing it out of the goodness of their collective heart. BTW, nowhere in the HW announcement does it mention 20% of Superchargers.

Right, you have to have read things earlier in the week which stated it all over the place.

17,711 Superchargers today. 3,500 / 17,711 =... And they are all ready planning on doubling the Supercharger network, so it drops to 10,000, 3,500 / 34,000...

Tesla is doing this because they get MONEY. Simple. They are opening only a small amount of their chargers, because 3,500 is a huge increase for CCS vehicles. Later down the line, expect them to open more, because they'll be seen again as coming to the rescue and they'll get MONEY. The big question is whether the US is smart enough to have ironclad rules on the money to claw it back when Musk goes back on his word or doesn't meet the requirements.

By late 2024, Tesla would open 3,500 new and existing Superchargers along highway corridors to non-Tesla customers, the Biden administration said. It would also offer 4,000 slower chargers at locations like hotels and restaurants.

A White House official said at a briefing that Tesla would be eligible for a subsidy - including retrofitting its existing fleet - as long as its chargers allowed other vehicles with a federally backed charging standard called CCS to charge.

Tesla has 17,711 Superchargers, accounting for about 60% of total U.S. fast chargers, which can add hundreds of miles of driving range in an hour or less. There are also nearly 10,000 "destination" chargers with Tesla plugs that can recharge a vehicle overnight.

"Select Tesla Superchargers across the US will soon be open to all EVs,"Tesla wrote on Twitter, without elaborating on when, where and how it would open its chargers. It had already planned to more than double its U.S. Supercharger network by the end of 2024, it said.

 

[F150ROD]

Tesla isn't being "Forced" to do anything. They love Government monies and are doing it to get more.

 

[cvalue13]

Some context:

• 3,500 superchargers refers to individual chargers, not stations

• the release says some portion will be ~retrofitted chargers at existing stations

• A good article on related point from MIT Tech Review today:

The U.S. only has 6,000 fast charging stations for EVs. Here’s where they all are.

Some TLDR highlight data from the article:

• In contrast to 6,000 fast charging stations, the United States has around 150,000 fuel stations

• 400,000 EVs were sold in 2021, up from barely 10,000 in 2012

• Still, EVs represent less than 3% of new car sales

• Interestingly, that seems to mean that the ratio of EV to non-EV new car sales (3%) is almost on scale with the ratio of fast charge to fueling stations (4%).

The money shot fast charge station map:

• according to Wiki, in the U.S. Tesla has 1,772 supercharger stations in North America. If MIT’s 6,000 total fast charge stations in U.S. figure is correct, that suggests Tesla has (at most) less than 1/3 of the fast charge stations in the US? That surprised me.

• However, the MIT article says that “most” fast charging stations in US have only one or two chargers at the station. Since Tesla stations have an average of 9 (Wiki), it would suggest that while there are 2/3 more non-Tesla stations, the total number of chargers may be Tesla’s prize?
• If Tesla currently has ~1,700 supercharger stations and less than 1/3 of total 6,000 current stations, the doubling by end of 2024 suggests 2,800 stations total.

•!Within those 2,800 stations 3,500 dual use chargers available, with non-Tesla availability being distributed either:

• ~350 stations with all chargers therein being dual use (since Tesla averages about 10 chargers per starion)

• ~all 2,800 Tesla stations having at least 1
dual use charger

• somewhere inbetween

For non-Tesla’s and these new dual-use chargers, a key question for the resulting infrastructure will be how they distribute these dual-use chargers across stations (1 or 10?), and where those dual use chargers are located

if it’s only 350 new stations by end of 2024, with all chargers dual use, and all such stations are located on the coasts, that’s one outcome

another outcome entirely would be two dual-use chargers at most of the 2,800 stations across the US

 

[luebri]

Tesla isn't being "Forced" to do anything. They love Government monies and are doing it to get more.

Don’t make it sound like such a bad thing, to be fair there’s a whole lot of people on here that had/have their hand out for that government $7500. Me included.

 

[F150ROD]

Don’t make it sound like such a bad thing, to be fair there’s a whole lot of people on here that had/have their hand out for that government $7500. Me included.

I didn’t say it was a bad thing. But that’s the truth. Tesla wanted a piece of the free money so they agreed to open up the network.

And as far as a “handout” for us on here. I’ve been paying taxes for a long as time, so giving me back some of my $7500 is ok

 

[luebri]

I didn’t say it was a bad thing. But that’s the truth. Tesla wanted a piece of the free money so they agreed to open up the network.

And as far as a “handout” for us on here. I’ve been paying taxes for a long as time, so giving me back some of my $7500 is ok

True, but, I’d vote for just having them take a whole lot less taxes from the start

 

[F150ROD]

True, but, I’d vote for just having them take a whole lot less taxes from the start

Yeah, but you know how that goes…….

 

[luebri]

WOW! Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars to be spent on charging infrastructure before 2030, most within five years.

New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers

There is so much information in the announcement that it's hard to pick a place to start. One paragraph really stood out for me is that it appears that Tesla will be forced to support non-Tesla EV charging at some if not all of their Superchargers by the end of 2024. The progress of most of the major developments in charging infrastructure we have read about lately is in the anoucement.

The world as we know it is definitely changing and this announcement is a good road map to what the transportation future is going to look like. If anyone is looking for a career for themselves, their children or their grandchildren I think this announcement would be a good read. It's quite clear that anyone that wants to build a career in either the EVs themselves or the infrastructure supporting them, the future will be bright.

Government is good at writing checks. Now the hard part, actually executing competently And efficiently. That’s been more of their Achilles’ heel.

 

[RickLightning]

Some context:

• 3,500 superchargers refers to individual chargers, not stations

• the release says some portion will be ~retrofitted chargers at existing stations

• A good article on related point from MIT Tech Review today:

The U.S. only has 6,000 fast charging stations for EVs. Here’s where they all are.

Some TLDR highlight data from the article:

• In contrast to 6,000 fast charging stations, the United States has around 150,000 fuel stations

• 400,000 EVs were sold in 2021, up from barely 10,000 in 2012

• Still, EVs represent less than 3% of new car sales

• Interestingly, that seems to mean that the ratio of EV to non-EV new car sales (3%) is almost on scale with the ratio of fast charge to fueling stations (4%).

The money shot fast charge station map:

• according to Wiki, in the U.S. Tesla has 1,772 supercharger stations in North America. If MIT’s 6,000 total fast charge stations in U.S. figure is correct, that suggests Tesla has (at most) less than 1/3 of the fast charge stations in the US? That surprised me.

• However, the MIT article says that “most” fast charging stations in US have only one or two chargers at the station. Since Tesla stations have an average of 9 (Wiki), it would suggest that while there are 2/3 more non-Tesla stations, the total number of chargers may be Tesla’s prize?
• If Tesla currently has ~1,700 supercharger stations and less than 1/3 of total 6,000 current stations, the doubling by end of 2024 suggests 2,800 stations total.

•!Within those 2,800 stations 3,500 dual use chargers available, with non-Tesla availability being distributed either:

• ~350 stations with all chargers therein being dual use (since Tesla averages about 10 chargers per starion)

• ~all 2,800 Tesla stations having at least 1
dual use charger

• somewhere inbetween

For non-Tesla’s and these new dual-use chargers, a key question for the resulting infrastructure will be how they distribute these dual-use chargers across stations (1 or 10?), and where those dual use chargers are located

if it’s only 350 new stations by end of 2024, with all chargers dual use, and all such stations are located on the coasts, that’s one outcome

another outcome entirely would be two dual-use chargers at most of the 2,800 stations across the US

Your numbers are wrong.
Tesla has nearly 18,000 individual Superchargers in the US as I stated. 3,500 will be CCS, and Tesla is doubling their network by end of 2024. It will be closer to 10% by end of 2024 if they double the network.

Map of US SuperCharger LOCATIONS.

 

[Amps]

In contrast to 6,000 fast charging stations, the United States has around 150,000 fuel stations

It's good to know, but there wouldn't be nearly as many fuel stations if a majority of the refueling was done in residences and workplaces. DCFC is a tough business model, especially when you get away from major interstate routes. I think the super-pumpers like Sheetz, Wawa, Buc-ees, Flying J, TA, and Pilot will have the best chance of making it work.

 

[cvalue13]

Your numbers are wrong.
Tesla has nearly 18,000 individual Superchargers in the US as I stated..

Map of US SuperCharger LOCATIONS.

You’re still misreading the distinction between supercharger stalls vs supercharger stations.

At least read the linked article (or reflect on its, title: “The U.S. only has 6,000 fast charging stations for EVs. Here’s where they all are”).

Or, squint again at the map you provided and think about what 1,700 dots looks like (what that map shows) vs what 18,000 dots would look like (what that map doesn’t show). [HINT: the latter would require at least 350 dots in each of 50 states]

If all that fails, a moment of critical googling:

“Tesla operates 40,432 Superchargers in 4,470 stations worldwide…. There are 1,772 stations in North America”

“There are 1,498 Tesla Superchargers locations in the United States as of September 28, 2022.”

“As of summer 2022, Tesla had more than 1,400 Supercharger stations in the United States”

 

[cvalue13]

It's good to know, but there wouldn't be nearly as many fuel stations if a majority of the refueling was done in residences and workplaces. DCFC is a tough business

I think you’re touching on a core reason it’s a hard business:

since so many BEV users will primarily “refuel” at home, there’s that much less total demand for stations.

but the wide distribution of stations especially in remote portions of the country is still critical for the very small subset of BEV owners looking to travel long distances regularly, and for the slightly larger subset of BEV owners looking to travel long distances only infrequently,

That’s a tension that seems unlikely to be resolved by market forces alone - except perhaps if the CapEx and OpEx of fast chargers comes down so drastically it becomes a “why not add” for owners of existing infra.

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