Will Ford's NACS announcement cause people not to buy EVs with CCS until 2025 ??

[Toby57]

I truly hope that Equinox MSRP stays at, starts at 30 grand. That is what the ice Equinox starts at. The Equonix is very popular. If chevy does not change anything, interior, gizmos and gadgets from ice to ev and the starting price is the same. More people might convert to ev.
If, chevy has to raise the msrp ten grand it will kill sales. That would make cost of ownership to much. That ten grand is more than enough to buy all the gas and maintenance to drive that ice 100,000 miles. As long as ev costs are ten to twenty grand more than the same thing in ice, ev sales will be slow. That is why people look at ev stickers and say , too expensive.
Again, I do hope that Equinox sales for the same price as ice.

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[Maquis]

I truly hope that Equinox MSRP stays at, starts at 30 grand. That is what the ice Equinox starts at. The Equonix is very popular. If chevy does not change anything, interior, gizmos and gadgets from ice to ev and the starting price is the same. More people might convert to ev.
If, chevy has to raise the msrp ten grand it will kill sales. That would make cost of ownership to much. That ten grand is more than enough to buy all the gas and maintenance to drive that ice 100,000 miles. As long as ev costs are ten to twenty grand more than the same thing in ice, ev sales will be slow. That is why people look at ev stickers and say , too expensive.
Again, I do hope that Equinox sales for the same price as ice.

It’s likely eligible for the full $7500 tax credit. I’d be shocked if the MSRP isn’t at least $7500 greater than the equivalent ICE.

 

[Toby57]

Thanks Dave, you are probably right. I ask, if a buyer does not pay $7500 in taxes in year of purchase, would they get a partial tax credit?

 

[VTbuckeye]

Try it. You might like it...Is that what they are afraid of?

Going back in time to 2012 I almost bought a new Mazda rx8 as a fun car. My wife, in her infinite wisdom, said no at the last minute. I am grateful. A year later we purchased a 2013 Chevy volt. Since then we have been interested in EV, or at least plug in of some kind. With the volt we developed gas anxiety (how can we drive to not use the ice). In 2016 we purchased the only 3 row plug in available at that time, Volvo XC90 phev (Pacifica hybrid would not become available until later that summer). Our 2009 Mazda 5 was having battery/electrical issues (alternator was supplying the right amount of power, everything turned off, but you never knew when the battery would be dead after multiple batteries). It was also being driven only a few times per month (tried to drive the volt as often as possible) and most importantly my wife was DONE with that car. We also had a 2011 f150 that was not getting driven very much.

In 2019 we replaced the volt with a Bolt. Full EV is how we wanted to drive on a day to day basis. Would have considered a model 3 if it was a hatchback. We didn't want to purchase a non-plug in after the Volvo (though we replaced the f150 with a Tacoma with no electrified truck available in 2018). We tow the boat a few times per year and the Tacoma was more efficient and held value in addition to the f150 having some turbo issues despite having less than 25000 miles on the odometer. Last October the taco was replaced with a lightning... Now the phev xc90 is the least used car in our household (and i still have gas anxiety).

With regards to EV "try it, you might like it" is how I feel. As long as you have a place to charge at home, I would not want to go back to ice in my everyday driving. We still haven't done a long trip in any of our EVs, but we don't travel often. Trips may be the only time I might prefer ice.

 

[Maquis]

Thanks Dave, you are probably right. I ask, if a buyer does not pay $7500 in taxes in year of purchase, would they get a partial tax credit?

Yes, you are eligible to receive your total federal income tax liability or $7500, whichever is less, assuming you meet the income guidelines. But if I was going to purchase an eligible EV, I’d make sure my tax liability was $7500, probably by converting IRA to Roth.

 

[Toby57]

Thanks, that is the way I. Understood it but wasn't sure.

 

[scottf200]

Saw this article and wondering if this might be one of the reasons EVs are not selling as quickly:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-only-ev-worth-buying-right-now-charging-nacs-ccs-2023-7

Maybe if Farley makes his adaptor rollout plan public, specifically the time table, people would rethink waiting.

I would have no problem buying a current CCS vehicle if I knew when I would be receiving my adaptor, how much it might cost me, and when Tesla will have the app integration done.

FYI, on the v2- vs v3+ Tesla superchargers that Ford, GM, Rivian, etc will work with the adapter.

 

[ivan256]

EV's are scary to a lot of people. They don't trust new tech, they worry about how to charge, they believe all the nonsense propaganda that tells them how EVs are actually worse for the environment. People are bad at math, they can read all the numbers, specs, spreadsheets, etc.. that shows them an EV will have a lower total cost of ownership even though it's a bit more to buy up front and they'll still just look at the price and think it's too expensive... people are dumb.

This is nonsense. Sure, maybe it's true for some people, but the narrative that the people who don't want an EV are scared, worried, and dumb is bogus. Most people who don't want an EV understand exactly what it means to have one, and the things that make them undesirable are completely reasonable and accurate.

Let's start with the last one and work our way back.... Yeah, some EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles. Except it's not the nice ones. And what are you comparing them to? You can buy a Prius and 125,000 miles of gas for $40k. The only EV in the same ballpark in terms of capability, quality, and lower TCO is a Bolt, and they've already announced it's cancelled. Even in cases where the EV wins on TCO, it's not by a huge margin. They're competitive.

Nonsense about how they're worse for the environment? Yeah, there's people who believe that. But find me one where that's their actual motivation behind selecting a vehicle. Seriously, find somebody who would have bought an EV, but didn't because of this - rather than people who say this to fire you up. Anybody who believes this isn't buying an EV for some reason one way or another, and I think they're a small minority.

Worry about being able to charge? This isn't a worry. This is a legitimate and significant limitation of battery electric vehicles. The reality is that many destinations do not have charging. So if you have a gas powered car you can go to where you're going, spend your time doing what you want, hit a corner gas station on the way out, and spend almost none of your life refueling. Meanwhile if you have an EV and you're going somewhere without a charger (most places!) you have to stop somewhere near your destination or along the way and wait multiple times the typical refueling duration to charge. That's time you're not spending doing the thing you drove to do. People's time is valuable. This is not a worry or misunderstanding or nonsense propaganda. It's the reality of daily driving an EV. (Which I do every day, BTW. This isn't some ICE zealot spouting talking points back at you.) Sure, many people use their car in a way where this won't matter and they can happily just charge at home every night. But many people do more than just commuting, which is why Level 3 charging even exists!

That's not all when it comes to charging either. If you drive all day and pull into your garage on fumes, you can hit the gas station in the morning and you're out an extra 5 minutes on your commute. If you drive your EV all day and forget to plug it in when you get home, the next day you're screwed. Yeah, it's not the car's fault. But things happen, and the consequences are higher with an EV than otherwise.

Finally, not trusting new tech. Everybody should at least be mindful of this because it's not unreasonable in any way. Companies are using the newness of EVs to change the way we own and interact with our vehicles that have nothing to do with the fact that they're electric. If you're not at least considering the privacy, security, subscription cost, or resale implications of the technology in your EV, you should be! Or maybe you just don't want to learn any new technology to use a car. That's completely reasonable too!

People are way smarter than you give them credit for. They completely understand that EVs have tradeoffs. There's some things about them that are way better - but some people aren't motivated by those things. They might not care at all about acceleration, or emissions.... That doesn't make them dumb. They just have different priorities than you.


Why did I write all this? It wasn't to troll you. If you want to convince people to do something - drive an EV - you need to properly understand the reasons they aren't doing the thing you're trying to convince them to do. If you win the wrong argument - a made up argument - you haven't gotten anywhere. If you tell them they're an idiot, they'll just dig in and you've added spite to the list of reasons not to do it.

 

[Solar_EE]

Talk about a pipe dream, lol. I feel for them, they'll be waiting for a long time...

Yeah, everything I would have saved in fuel costs was nullified by the increase in registration. No regrets, but writing that check hurt a little.

Why is Arizona penalizing EVs? I suppose they want to burn more dino fuel to get some more temperature records? This is what happens in states run by the fossil fuel lobby- that includes EVERY republican!

 

[Zprime29]

Why is Arizona penalizing EVs? I suppose they want to burn more dino fuel to get some more temperature records? This is what happens in states run by the fossil fuel lobby- that includes EVERY republican!

There used to be a big discount for registering an EV. That discount ended Dec 22, now it's the same as every other car. So EV's are penalized in the sense that they are more expensive. AZ charges a vehicle license tax to register, which is based on the MSRP of your vehicle. The cost decreases the older a car gets, which encourages buying older cars/driving what you have longer.

It was around a $100 to register my 2016 Legacy last year, MSRP was around $22k I think. It was around $1100 to register my Lariat Lightning, MSRP just shy of $80k. Double whammy of new and more expensive.

 

[Maquis]

This is nonsense. Sure, maybe it's true for some people, but the narrative that the people who don't want an EV are scared, worried, and dumb is bogus. Most people who don't want an EV understand exactly what it means to have one, and the things that make them undesirable are completely reasonable and accurate.

Let's start with the last one and work our way back.... Yeah, some EVs have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles. Except it's not the nice ones. And what are you comparing them to? You can buy a Prius and 125,000 miles of gas for $40k. The only EV in the same ballpark in terms of capability, quality, and lower TCO is a Bolt, and they've already announced it's cancelled. Even in cases where the EV wins on TCO, it's not by a huge margin. They're competitive.

Nonsense about how they're worse for the environment? Yeah, there's people who believe that. But find me one where that's their actual motivation behind selecting a vehicle. Seriously, find somebody who would have bought an EV, but didn't because of this - rather than people who say this to fire you up. Anybody who believes this isn't buying an EV for some reason one way or another, and I think they're a small minority.

Worry about being able to charge? This isn't a worry. This is a legitimate and significant limitation of battery electric vehicles. The reality is that many destinations do not have charging. So if you have a gas powered car you can go to where you're going, spend your time doing what you want, hit a corner gas station on the way out, and spend almost none of your life refueling. Meanwhile if you have an EV and you're going somewhere without a charger (most places!) you have to stop somewhere near your destination or along the way and wait multiple times the typical refueling duration to charge. That's time you're not spending doing the thing you drove to do. People's time is valuable. This is not a worry or misunderstanding or nonsense propaganda. It's the reality of daily driving an EV. (Which I do every day, BTW. This isn't some ICE zealot spouting talking points back at you.) Sure, many people use their car in a way where this won't matter and they can happily just charge at home every night. But many people do more than just commuting, which is why Level 3 charging even exists!

That's not all when it comes to charging either. If you drive all day and pull into your garage on fumes, you can hit the gas station in the morning and you're out an extra 5 minutes on your commute. If you drive your EV all day and forget to plug it in when you get home, the next day you're screwed. Yeah, it's not the car's fault. But things happen, and the consequences are higher with an EV than otherwise.

Finally, not trusting new tech. Everybody should at least be mindful of this because it's not unreasonable in any way. Companies are using the newness of EVs to change the way we own and interact with our vehicles that have nothing to do with the fact that they're electric. If you're not at least considering the privacy, security, subscription cost, or resale implications of the technology in your EV, you should be! Or maybe you just don't want to learn any new technology to use a car. That's completely reasonable too!

People are way smarter than you give them credit for. They completely understand that EVs have tradeoffs. There's some things about them that are way better - but some people aren't motivated by those things. They might not care at all about acceleration, or emissions.... That doesn't make them dumb. They just have different priorities than you.


Why did I write all this? It wasn't to troll you. If you want to convince people to do something - drive an EV - you need to properly understand the reasons they aren't doing the thing you're trying to convince them to do. If you win the wrong argument - a made up argument - you haven't gotten anywhere. If you tell them they're an idiot, they'll just dig in and you've added spite to the list of reasons not to do it.

You’re describing how rational people should behave and have the ability to think critically.

Maybe not where you live, but there is a large swath of people whose only knowledge about EVs is what they see on Fox News or NewsMax. EVs catch fire, are destroying the grid, cause slave labor to be used to mine rare metals, blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard it all. You’re absolutely correct when you say it doesn’t pay to argue with them.

I have no idea what percentage of people fall into which camp, but for all our sakes, I hope the majority are the ones you describe!

 

[Solar_EE]

There used to be a big discount for registering an EV. That discount ended Dec 22, now it's the same as every other car. So EV's are penalized in the sense that they are more expensive. AZ charges a vehicle license tax to register, which is based on the MSRP of your vehicle. The cost decreases the older a car gets, which encourages buying older cars/driving what you have longer.

It was around a $100 to register my 2016 Legacy last year, MSRP was around $22k I think. It was around $1100 to register my Lariat Lightning, MSRP just shy of $80k. Double whammy of new and more expensive.

Maryland used to give a sales tax rebate on EVs- but with the hapless Hogan the program quickly ran out of money. But at least there is not a big annual fee for an EV like in many states.

 

[Zprime29]

Maryland used to give a sales tax rebate on EVs- but with the hapless Hogan the program quickly ran out of money. But at least there is not a big annual fee for an EV like in many states.

I've seen a few articles about states adding an EV fee to account for the missing revenue from gas taxes. I'd be ok with that IF it's based on the mileage driven. End of the year, you report your odometer and a road tax is levied based on the difference from the previous year. Then it'd be fair.

 

[Solar_EE]

I've seen a few articles about states adding an EV fee to account for the missing revenue from gas taxes. I'd be ok with that IF it's based on the mileage driven. End of the year, you report your odometer and a road tax is levied based on the difference from the previous year. Then it'd be fair.

Yes, but many states are trying to incentivize people to buy EVs-this sort of extra fee is not helpful. I'd like to see the Norway approach- charge an extra $10K per year for ICE vehicles - to help offset their pollution. Then an $7500 incentive to buy an EV and Norway is phasing out dino fuel stations- often they have one little pump off to the side of the EV chargers. 79% of vehicles sold in 2022 in Norway were EVs. That's what happens when a country is serious about EV adoption.

 

[ivan256]

You’re describing how rational people should behave and have the ability to think critically.

Maybe not where you live, but there is a large swath of people whose only knowledge about EVs is what they see on Fox News or NewsMax. EVs catch fire, are destroying the grid, cause slave labor to be used to mine rare metals, blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard it all. You’re absolutely correct when you say it doesn’t pay to argue with them.

I have no idea what percentage of people fall into which camp, but for all our sakes, I hope the majority are the ones you describe!

Many people assume the others are a certain way. Just because somebody doesn't think the way you do doesn't mean they're not capable of being rational and thinking critically. People are individual people, not a caricature of the worst of us.

I am absolutely not saying that it doesn't pay to argue. The ones who are truly unreasonable are a minority and it would pay dividends to actually engage now and then. You might not learn what you assumed you'd learn and the outcome might not be what you wanted, but it would still be valuable. For every person who only knows what they heard on a partisan news channel, some fraction of them aren't willing to hear anything to the contrary and some of them just need exposure to other ideas. And though few people like to admit it, that's true in both directions! "EVs catch fire and cause slave labor" isn't any more or less reasonable of an argument than "The problems with EVs are all in your head and you're just being stubborn!" Both of those are ridiculous!

It doesn't take very long to figure out if you're talking to a reasonable person who disagrees with you, or a zealot with irrational beliefs. And it similarly doesn't take long to get completely out of touch with what other people think if you spend that time in an echo chamber.

"They're idiots; let's just force them to do what we want them to do" is never the answer. Whether the cause is noble or evil. Not only is it morally questionable, but it typically doesn't work out in the long run either. You've got to actually win the argument with a significant majority of people. And with EVs, there's problems to solve still to do that.

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