Placed Cybertruck order after Lightning reservation

[beatle]

They cut radar from the cars because its unnecessary, the camera system is so advanced for autopilot driving that radar is unneeded. And lumbar support was removed from the passenger side, driver seat still has it. There's always a lot of FUD surrounding Tesla, don't buy into all of it

It's true, opinions on Tesla rarely have any middle ground which is a shame.

That said, to say radar is "unnecessary" ignores the benefits over vision-only data. Radar can "see" things that would otherwise be obscured in a camera view such as glare or inclement weather. Lidar is a further tool that can be used to provide input into the AP system, but that hasn't been used by Tesla either. My guess is that they believe vision is "good enough" since it works for people. But they're clearly not at that level yet. The continued use of a radar sensor can provide good complimentary data to a vision system that is only partially baked.

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[Jrohner78]

Not true anymore they hired many new techs and mobile services 2-3 day wait time is been on tesla service to arrive at my home. 3 to 4 week wait times for Ford appointment with 2 month wait on parts on a new powerboost 80k truck. No loaner cars available at ford dealer they need to sell some and no Uber credits like tesla does when out of loaners. Ford experience has been lousy shit! Geting worse over the years Tesla! Tesla was terrible in the past on wait times. But no longer the case it's only going to get better as they expand.

I've been without my truck since May 7th due to accident and I still have parts on backorder... Fenders, and frame rail extension (Bumper mount) are the big ones on backorder.... how are these simple parts on backorder I have no clue yet they can build trucks to park on a race track..

I've tried calling and going through social media here lately to see if I can't get someone off their ass and divert some parts to their parts depot..

 

[Daily22ssv]

I've been without my truck since May 7th due to accident and I still have parts on backorder... Fenders, and frame rail extension (Bumper mount) are the big ones on backorder.... how are these simple parts on backorder I have no clue yet they can build trucks to park on a race track..

I've tried calling and going through social media here lately to see if I can't get someone off their ass and divert some parts to their parts depot..

It's frustrating! Waited 6 weeks for axle shaft due to a bad level job.

 

[Daily22ssv]

The actual service itself has not been a problem for me, it is the interaction (or lack thereof) with customer service. There is always a lag of a day or two before you receive a response via the app, and it is the ONLY way to initiate and sometimes maintain a conversation.

Sometimes turnaround time for parts is good, sometimes it is weeks. My personal experience is that once you do get an appointment scheduled, it is within a reasonable amount of time if parts are available, but that is not a universal experience around the country. My MCU2 install was pushed back a few weeks, for example. Visit a Tesla forum and see what people say about the service. Loaners are also unicorns. I was lucky to have one for one of my service appointments, but the other 3 times I was without.

It is too bad that Ford may also have service issues. At least you can call or walk into a dealership and pick up a part if they have one available. What parts were not available for your truck that extended its service visit?

We've had some really crazy bad experiences with tesla service in the past. It's been so much better lately. Booking though app is annoying but the response time is good. As far as ford it's been like the bad things tesla had ford has been worse. Getting appointment, loaner vehicles, parts or any answers to all the issues this truck has been ridiculous wait times! Plus service will have it for weeks. Been a major reget trading in my 2016 for this headache!

 

[ChasingCoral]

They cut radar from the cars because its unnecessary, the camera system is so advanced for autopilot driving that radar is unneeded. And lumbar support was removed from the passenger side, driver seat still has it. There's always a lot of FUD surrounding Tesla, don't buy into all of it

Tesla also backed off on many ADAS features in the new models without radars. I know they said these features were "coming soon" in an OTA update but Tesla has a reputation of over-promising and either under-delivering or at least delivering late.

 

[Blainestang]

Tesla also backed off on many ADAS features in the new models without radars. I know they said these features were "coming soon" in an OTA update but Tesla has a reputation of over-promising and either under-delivering or at least delivering late.

For clarity, Tesla changed 3 things temporarily when switching to vision only:

Autosteer is limited to 75mph. So, it still works, just limited to 75mph. Smart Summon is currently unavailable. Not really a meaningful loss of functionality from a practical standpoint, and is only available with the Full Self Driving option, anyway. Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance is also temporarily disabled... which basically never activates anyway on a car with autosteer and a not-terrible driver.

 

[Jhalkias]

They cut radar from the cars because its unnecessary, the camera system is so advanced for autopilot driving that radar is unneeded. And lumbar support was removed from the passenger side, driver seat still has it. There's always a lot of FUD surrounding Tesla, don't buy into all of it

Seriously? You honestly believe that bull from Elon? Ask any engineer - redundant systems are ALWAYS a good thing. Especially in safety. Taking out radar was more probably a supply and cost issue. And relying on cameras only? Do you honestly think that is a great idea if it were true? What happens in inclement weather? What happens when the sun is shining right into that camera lens? What happens if a bug hits a critical camera?

This is why Tesla is a level 2 system trying to sell itself as level 4 or 5 capable. Which is another pile of Elon you know what.

 

[Blainestang]

Seriously? You honestly believe that bull from Elon? Ask any engineer - redundant systems are ALWAYS a good thing. Especially in safety. Taking out radar was more probably a supply and cost issue. And relying on cameras only? Do you honestly think that is a great idea if it were true? What happens in inclement weather? What happens when the sun is shining right into that camera lens? What happens if a bug hits a critical camera?

This is why Tesla is a level 2 system trying to sell itself as level 4 or 5 capable. Which is another pile of Elon you know what.

I'm on record above saying that the timing of the radar removal was probably a supply issue (though eventually planned), but I'm also an engineer and no, redundant systems aren't "ALWAYS a good thing". Lots of variables: What are the costs and downsides of the redundant system vs the benefit they add vs the effectiveness of the base system. Here's an extreme example: What about a redundant propulsion system on a drone? Now it's too heavy to fly or too huge, too slow, or expensive.

So, redundant systems are often a good thing. But no, an engineer should not tell you that redundant systems are "ALWAYS a good thing" because engineers have to account for many, many other considerations in their design.

 

[Theo1000]

The rest of the industry auto driving efforts seem to be working just fine with Radar. I think this is TSLA discontenting, an easy $500 to knock of the cost of manufacture. Same with the Lumbar support, another easy $150. Keep in mind the lumbar removal was not even announced. I'm very certain other internal discontenting, unannounced is ongoing. Interesting times. One of the things the raw material cost increases is doing is separating the wheat from the chaff.

TSLA cars are just expensive to manufacture esp. at the small scale level TSLA is trying to do with no shared parts bin. I keep telling everyone to look at the history of Packard and AMC if they want to know how this story is going to end. Fantastic cars but could never overcome the big three cost to manufacture story.

 

[Jhalkias]

I'm on record above saying that the timing of the radar removal was probably a supply issue (though eventually planned), but I'm also an engineer and no, redundant systems aren't "ALWAYS a good thing". Lots of variables: What are the costs and downsides of the redundant system vs the benefit they add vs the effectiveness of the base system. Here's an extreme example: What about a redundant propulsion system on a drone? Now it's too heavy to fly or too huge, too slow, or expensive.

So, redundant systems are often a good thing. But no, an engineer should not tell you that redundant systems are "ALWAYS a good thing" because engineers have to account for many, many other considerations in their design.

Ok, I agree with you with the caveat that redundant systems that destroy the utility or use ability of a device are not a good thing. Of course cost can be a factor too. I thought we all understood this did not involve any of those types of examples. So would you trust those cars operating on cameras and sonic sensors alone to drive for you? Do you think “Tesla Pure Vision” is a good thing as an engineer?

 

[Blainestang]

Ok, I agree with you with the caveat that redundant systems that destroy the utility or use ability of a device are not a good thing. Of course cost can be a factor too. I thought we all understood this did not involve any of those types of examples.

Right, I'm specifically responding to the claim that redundant systems are ALWAYS better.

That said, if there's no radar available, then the redundant system (radar), literally keeps Tesla from delivering cars... cars that are quite safe according to 3rd party crash testing... lowest probability of injury ever tested.

So, in that sense, if people are driving a less safe vehicle waiting for their Model 3, there is *some* net change in overall safety by being able to deliver cars vs. the redundant system blocking that ability.

Assuming the cars are slightly less safe without radar (which I'm not sure is actually true *IF* the cars are being more cautious/limited, but let's assume that for this comparison), then the net change in safety may still be positive for delivering non-radar cars vs. not delivering cars at all.

I'm definitely overthinking this haha, but it goes to my point that there are a zillion variables, many of which we don't know well enough to say definitively what the overall safest solution is.

So would you trust those cars operating on cameras and sonic sensors alone to drive for you? Do you think “Tesla Pure Vision” is a good thing as an engineer?

Would I trust it? Sure. Because it's level 2 and I'm still paying attention whether it has radar or not.

Do I think Tesla Vision is a good thing? Tesla seems to think it's slightly less capable right now, so that's going backwards, at least temporarily. I think they got rid of radar, now, because of supply, not because now was the ideal time to do it from an engineering standpoint.

Long term, I think the premise/goal is great. Making the primary solution robust with minimal sensors would be incredibly powerful, both for cars and many other use cases. I hope they can do it in a reasonable timeframe, but I, like all but about 10 people in the world, if that, don't know what that timeframe will be.

 

[IdeaOfTheDayCom]

I have a CT and Lightning on reservation also.

Ditto... For me it was a decision to move to an EV platform. So I ordered both so I can move as soon as possible.

I was spending about $75 per week in gas for my F-150, plus about $125 every 3 months on oil changes, etc..

What I didn't expect was for my F-150 to break down while I waited. After waiting over 4 months for the dealer to try to figure out what's wrong with it, I traded it for my current ride, a Mustang Mach-e.

It's a great car, and it proved to me that Ford is taking EVs seriously. Trouble is, it's a car, and I need another truck.

Ford's website claims a 22 week wait for delivery, so they clearly won the race to deliver a quality EV truck. I love Elon Musk's passion for building an extraordinary truck, but announcing a truck 4 years before delivering it is not the right way to go about it. They should've either waited to announce, or shipped whatever was ready at the time.

I'm sure whatever Ford will be producing 4 years from now will be even more advanced than the 22 Lightning, but at least they're not waiting 4 years to improve it before releasing it.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Ford needs to fix their issues with EA during this time to make it better for those of us coming from Tesla.

As a driver of a non-tesla EV, I have been watching charging stations pop up like weeds all over the landscape recently. The drive we regularly do from the US to Canada would not have been easy 2 years ago, and now the remote highways of Canada are crowded with chargers.

I am not sure Ford needs to be the leader on charging station rollouts. Tesla needed to do this being one of the original EV car companies, but just like gas stations, I think in the longer term car companies want to make cars, and not run the charging points.

At the rate that various new chargers are popping up, I think it won't be terribly long before they are just about everywhere, and the really neat thing, is that many of the EA chargers now have faster charging than the Tesla 2nd Gen chargers (though not tesla's 3rd Gen).

 

[LightningShow]

I'm seeing lots of people on Twitter posting their Model X orders getting delayed another 6+ months, people with Spring 2021 orders now looking at Spring 2023 delivery. Tesla can't even make the vehicles they have. There's no way the Cybertruck is coming out next year. I'm thinking 2025.

 

[PiMatrix]

I'm seeing lots of people on Twitter posting their Model X orders getting delayed another 6+ months, people with Spring 2021 orders now looking at Spring 2023 delivery. Tesla can't even make the vehicles they have. There's no way the Cybertruck is coming out next year. I'm thinking 2025.

I too have a CT on order and did a lot of research to finally decide on the Lightning. The Lightning is "real" and I think the CT is 2-3 years away. However, as an engineer I really respect the Tesla manufacturing line which is much more cutting edge than Ford's, e.g. 4D AI controlled hexagonal robotic assembly, few stops on line if a problem develops and the line can easily mix options and even engineering changes with ease.

However, I would not count Musk/Tesla out as they do seem to be able to accomplish the seemingly impossible. Tesla's manufacturing line is a lot more scalable without labor than Fords IMHO. I'd say Fords is a bottoms up approach using union labor and robotics where needed. Tesla is a re-engineered tops down robotics and software approach vs human labor.

The CT is the truck I'd want to be in if we have the zombie apocalypse at the rate society and the world is going. In the meantime I think we will immensely enjoy the capabilities of the Lightning starting this year. It seems to be a race car, utility truck, massive high mileage 6,000+ pound tank, and comfort pleasure passenger vehicle all rolled into one.

The biggest danger to Tesla achieving their promised goals is Musk himself getting involved in politics which is a no-win game. He should stick to technology and vision which he seems to be very good at. Politics is not his forte IMHO and it distracts his companies, pisses off many customers, not to mention causing his employees and investors to lose a fortune. I think the last few week Tesla 50B$ personal loss, this weeks Veritas twitter video leak mocking his medical issue, and Teslas removal from the S&P 500s ESG index threw Musk over the edge. This combined with his extreme workaholic lifestyle has caused him to lose focus. So right now I have more confidence in Ford delivering but I do hope Tesla succeeds on the CT. And some day perhaps a ride on his rocket

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