Ford, GM Are All-In On EVs. Here’s How Their Dealers Feel About It

[sotek2345]

That big Tesla like screen is the biggest thing that may keep me out of the Lightning. They nailed it on the '21 F-150 by giving it a large screen but mounting it in landscape so you have physical HVAC and radio controls. I want nothing more in terms of screen sizes than what I have in this '21 Lariat. We test drove a Mach E, and that huge vertical screen has a cool look about it, but functionally it's a PITA compared to my F-150. I can adjust my heated/cooled seats, turn on my heated steering wheel, change temps, everything without looking away from the road. But on that Mach E, even if you get good at hitting the rough location, there is way more chance of being off slightly and cranking up the wrong setting.

While I can live with it overall, my wife flat out said there is no way. So Ford lost a Mach E sale by chasing Tesla and choosing form over function. While I don't think it's a world ending thing, I totally get why she doesn't want it. I love big screens and high tech stuff, but we also passed on the Model Y for the same reason, sometimes moving things to a screen isn't an improvement just because it cuts down on assembly costs.

the Lightning Pro and XLT trims keep the 12" screen you have in your '21 Lariat. That is one of the major reasons I will most likely spec mine as a well optioned XLT (just wish I could get the light bar on the tailgate and cooled seats - but those aren't hard points for me.).

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[Kickaha]

That big Tesla like screen is the biggest thing that may keep me out of the Lightning. They nailed it on the '21 F-150 by giving it a large screen but mounting it in landscape so you have physical HVAC and radio controls. I want nothing more in terms of screen sizes than what I have in this '21 Lariat. We test drove a Mach E, and that huge vertical screen has a cool look about it, but functionally it's a PITA compared to my F-150. I can adjust my heated/cooled seats, turn on my heated steering wheel, change temps, everything without looking away from the road. But on that Mach E, even if you get good at hitting the rough location, there is way more chance of being off slightly and cranking up the wrong setting.

While I can live with it overall, my wife flat out said there is no way. So Ford lost a Mach E sale by chasing Tesla and choosing form over function. While I don't think it's a world ending thing, I totally get why she doesn't want it. I love big screens and high tech stuff, but we also passed on the Model Y for the same reason, sometimes moving things to a screen isn't an improvement just because it cuts down on assembly costs.

I disagree. I have a 2016 Tesla Model X with one of the big-assed portrait screens and its fantastic. I recently had a model Y service loaner with the landscape screen and did not like it. Once you drive a vehicle with the large portait screen for a few days, you will be a convert.

The "killer app" for the portrait screen is navigation. In portrait, you see much further in your direction of travel. In landscape, you have much less visibility unless you zoom out. At that point, you loose resolution and all you see are major highways. Maybe thats all you need but I like seeing side streets, at least for some level of detail. I may be an outlier but I really like the portait screen.

Also, the portrait screen lets you see more information on settings without scrolling. Of course, thats on a Tesla. I dont know how many options are listed per screen on the Lightning.

 

[Vulnox]

I disagree. I have a 2016 Tesla Model X with one of the big-assed portrait screens and its fantastic. I recently had a model Y service loaner with the landscape screen and did not like it. Once you drive a vehicle with the large portait screen for a few days, you will be a convert.

The "killer app" for the portrait screen is navigation. In portrait, you see much further in your direction of travel. In landscape, you have much less visibility unless you zoom out. At that point, you loose resolution and all you see are major highways. Maybe thats all you need but I like seeing side streets, at least for some level of detail. I may be an outlier but I really like the portait screen.

Also, the portrait screen lets you see more information on settings without scrolling. Of course, thats on a Tesla. I dont know how many options are listed per screen on the Lightning.

Right, but everything you listed is bad, in my view. I don't drive down the road staring at my center screen to see the side streets go by. I can see plenty of side streets at a glance if needed in my 12" screen on the F-150. I also get turn by turn directions in the gauge cluster so I don't even have to look at the center screen.

I am very much a tech die-hard, but also a get to my destination with my family safe die-hard. I don't have time to look through the Tesla screens for wiper controls or whatever other stuff they hide in there, that's bad design. I can do everything in my F-150 faster than a comparable Tesla with the large portrait screen. I've spent plenty of time in a Model X (dad's neighbor has had two), and did the extended test drive in the Model Y. Even if screens are great, their design and lack of physical controls for basics like altering temps and that will never be a win in my book. I need access to radio and climate controls 10x more often than I need to see more side streets than are already visible on my huge F-150 screen already.

 

[aika1]

Right, but everything you listed is bad, in my view. I don't drive down the road staring at my center screen to see the side streets go by. I can see plenty of side streets at a glance if needed in my 12" screen on the F-150. I also get turn by turn directions in the gauge cluster so I don't even have to look at the center screen.

I am very much a tech die-hard, but also a get to my destination with my family safe die-hard. I don't have time to look through the Tesla screens for wiper controls or whatever other stuff they hide in there, that's bad design. I can do everything in my F-150 faster than a comparable Tesla with the large portrait screen. I've spent plenty of time in a Model X (dad's neighbor has had two), and did the extended test drive in the Model Y. Even if screens are great, their design and lack of physical controls for basics like altering temps and that will never be a win in my book. I need access to radio and climate controls 10x more often than I need to see more side streets than are already visible on my huge F-150 screen already.

THANK YOU. And well said. Add to that list, is that fact those lazily glued-on screens in EV's typically take up precious leg room for a guy as large as me. I tried sitting in a Mach-e and my knee consistently hits the edge of their glued-on iPad screen. It's lazy, ugly, and I can't wait until that foolish trend goes away...
Flush it into the dash like you care about the form AND function...
And keep physical buttons, for those of us who don't drive on glass consistently.

 

[GreggT]

I have never seen a poll reflecting even close to the 2/3 that this article claims are interested in buying an EV. Maybe they asked the 6 people in the room and 4 of them answered in the affirmative.

 

[Vulnox]

I have never seen a poll reflecting even close to the 2/3 that this article claims are interested in buying an EV. Maybe they asked the 6 people in the room and 4 of them answered in the affirmative.

Those questions are often fairly open ended. Everyone in my circle of friends and family except my dad are ready to move into an EV. They appreciate the convenience (leave with a full tank every day, no gas station trips on the way to work), lower maintenance costs (oil changes and so on), and performance. For most, and this is where things vary, they want to see quicker on the road charge times for longer trips, and possibly better general range. So if you ask, if someone gave you 100k, would an EV be your immediate choice, you wouldn't get 2/3 answering yes. But if you ask someone as they did, are you interested, you can easily get 2/3.

Also keeping in mind that these are general vehicle buyers, not just trucks. Much like the V8 holds out in trucks despite higher performing non-V8 options, truck buyers tend to fall into a wider spectrum than those that are happy to just buy a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla and call it a day. For those people, it's much easier to consider an EV.

It also doesn't say would you consider an EV as your ONLY vehicle. That's also a big distinction. Our family is interested in buying an EV, and will have one in the next 6 months one way or another, but it won't be our only vehicle.

 

[Vulnox]

THANK YOU. And well said. Add to that list, is that fact those lazily glued-on screens in EV's typically take up precious leg room for a guy as large as me. I tried sitting in a Mach-e and my knee consistently hits the edge of their glued-on iPad screen. It's lazy, ugly, and I can't wait until that foolish trend goes away...
Flush it into the dash like you care about the form AND function...
And keep physical buttons, for those of us who don't drive on glass consistently.

Yeah, to each their own. I am not going to argue personal choice with someone, I am only saying that I know I won't be won over by the Tesla way because I gave it a genuine shot. We did the Model Y test drive because for a time I considered buying it instead of ordering my '21 F-150, because we REALLY want an EV.

But the lack of center gauge cluster, and the PITA system of hiding basic controls in menus was a non-starter. Add to that the Autopilot was worse than my 2019s Adaptive Cruise (as far as smoothness of vehicle following, and the fact that my truck didn't stop at green lights), and I just didn't see the appeal, even though I went into the test drive SUPER excited for that car.

I also have a weak right eye. My left eye vision is perfect, but since I was born I have had a weak right eye. So it is not possible for me to look ahead and easily see my current speed in the genius decision they made to put your speed in a center mounted screen. I hoped it wouldn't be too bad, but it was. I had to glance to check speed, and it just wasn't working for me. With my F-150, I can at least keep what is ahead of my in my FOV to check the speed.

Again, to each their own. I know Tesla owners are often super happy with their vehicles, and that's great, but I also see people drive with their phone in their hands glancing at messages while they drive, almost got rear ended by one yesterday. What others consider acceptable and what I do are sometimes not the same.

 

[Texas Dan]

I think GM’s stated intention of 100% EVs by 2035 is just hype. I think Ford’s more moderate statement of 40% “electrified” is achievable - Ford considers the Powerboost an Electrified vehicle.

We wouldn’t even have electric vehicles if it weren’t for EPA and CARB mandates. California has an executive order for all new cars to be zero emission by 2035 and fifteen other states follow California's lead. There is a lot of pressure on the Biden administration to create a national zero emission mandate.

With that kind of political pressure you can bet that all auto manufactures have a 2035 target for 100% zero emission vehicles whether they admit to it or not.

 

[Vulnox]

We wouldn’t even have electric vehicles if it weren’t for EPA and CARB mandates. California has an executive order for all new cars to be zero emission by 2035 and fifteen other states follow California's lead. There is a lot of pressure on the Biden administration to create a national zero emission mandate.

With that kind of political pressure you can bet that all auto manufactures have a 2035 target for 100% zero emission vehicles whether they admit to it or not.

I don't think that is true at all. EVs have been around since the Model T era, one of the first vehicles was all battery. Plus Tesla doesn't exist at the behest of CARB compliance. What we wouldn't have if not for CARB are some of the compliance cars that came out that were half-assed attempts at meeting standards, like the Focus Electric. While the FE is a GREAT car, it has negatives that wouldn't exist if Ford wasn't just bolting on battery packs to hit compliance targets, like the lower cargo space.

Now that the market has responded so favorably to Tesla, you could take CARB away and OEMs would largely continue working towards it because people want it. I want it. I am so beyond done with ICE vehicles and their headaches/maintenance/fuel requirements.

 

[Texas Dan]

I don't think that is true at all. EVs have been around since the Model T era, one of the first vehicles was all battery. Plus Tesla doesn't exist at the behest of CARB compliance. What we wouldn't have if not for CARB are some of the compliance cars that came out that were half-assed attempts at meeting standards, like the Focus Electric. While the FE is a GREAT car, it has negatives that wouldn't exist if Ford wasn't just bolting on battery packs to hit compliance targets, like the lower cargo space.

Now that the market has responded so favorably to Tesla, you could take CARB away and OEMs would largely continue working towards it because people want it. I want it. I am so beyond done with ICE vehicles and their headaches/maintenance/fuel requirements.

Really?

It can't be disputed that the Governor of California issued an executive order that all new vehicles sold in California were to be zero emission by 2035. It can't be disputed that EPA and CARB started issuing vehicle efficiency requirements long before Tesla existed and that those requirements keep getting more stringent. And it can't be disputed that Tesla has benefited greatly from selling carbon credits that allowed other auto manufacturers not to develop and build EVs.

The EV market today is a classic example of social engineering and it's still a work in progress. I agree with you that I don't want to go back to ICE vehicles but you and I are early products of that social engineering and are not yet the average American. The average American is still dependent on ICE vehicles and changing something that's so entrenched in society is going to be very very hard.

We have not turned the corner, far from it. This battle is just beginning and I think it's going to get very messy before it's done. There is an old saying, "one persons rights end where another's begin" and I can rephrase that as, "you don't have the right to pollute my air with your ICE".

But a lot of people do think they have the right to pollute the air with their ICEs because that is what they have always done. Your are not going to change the minds of a majority of people just because some low volume auto manufacturer is marginally successful selling electric vehicles to rich people. A lot of people if not most, and that includes people in auto manufacturing, are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the EV age and that's why government mandates are required.

I read that some people consider the F150 Lightning an EV game changer and I have to agree. The F150 Lightning has the pedigree of over one hundred years of auto manufacturing but yet it's radically new. The F150 is already the best selling vehicle model in the USA but production of the F150 will have to increase by at least 20% next year alone just because of just two weeks of F150 Lightning reservations.

I don't think a lot of truck buyers realize yet just how radically different the F150 Lightning is. Once truck buyers start experiencing the F150 Lightning I think they will start abandoning their ICE trucks in droves for similar EV trucks. But complete elimination of the production and sale of ICE F150s and ICE trucks in general will take government mandates and auto manufactures' desire not to invest in the development of multiple propulsion platforms.

 

[Vulnox]

Really?

It can't be disputed that the Governor of California issued an executive order that all new vehicles sold in California were to be zero emission by 2035. It can't be disputed that EPA and CARB started issuing vehicle efficiency requirements long before Tesla existed and that those requirements keep getting more stringent. And it can't be disputed that Tesla has benefited greatly from selling carbon credits that allowed other auto manufacturers not to develop and build EVs.

The EV market today is a classic example of social engineering and it's still a work in progress. I agree with you that I don't want to go back to ICE vehicles but you and I are early products of that social engineering and are not yet the average American. The average American is still dependent on ICE vehicles and changing something that's so entrenched in society is going to be very very hard.

We have not turned the corner, far from it. This battle is just beginning and I think it's going to get very messy before it's done. There is an old saying, "one persons rights end where another's begin" and I can rephrase that as, "you don't have the right to pollute my air with your ICE".

But a lot of people do think they have the right to pollute the air with their ICEs because that is what they have always done. Your are not going to change the minds of a majority of people just because some low volume auto manufacturer is marginally successful selling electric vehicles to rich people. A lot of people if not most, and that includes people in auto manufacturing, are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the EV age and that's why government mandates are required.

I read that some people consider the F150 Lightning an EV game changer and I have to agree. The F150 Lightning has the pedigree of over one hundred years of auto manufacturing but yet it's radically new. The F150 is already the best selling vehicle model in the USA but production of the F150 will have to increase by at least 20% next year alone just because of just two weeks of F150 Lightning reservations.

I don't think a lot of truck buyers realize yet just how radically different the F150 Lightning is. Once truck buyers start experiencing the F150 Lightning I think they will start abandoning their ICE trucks in droves for similar EV trucks. But complete elimination of the production and sale of ICE F150s and ICE trucks in general will take government mandates and auto manufactures' desire not to invest in the development of multiple propulsion platforms.

I agree with everything you said, THAT time. Your post that I responded to said " We wouldn’t even have electric vehicles if it weren’t for EPA and CARB mandates. ", that is a direct quote.

By 1912, Electric vehicles made up 32% of auto purchases, with gasoline only accounting for 22%. Electric vehicles were far preferred to gasoline vehicles because they were lower maintenance, easier to start (45 minutes to start a steam powered vehicle on a cold day, can you imagine? We have it so easy... and gasoline vehicles had notoriously difficult startup procedures themselves), and much quieter.

Electric vehicles were killed by the spread of the highway system and the lack of electrical infrastructure in many areas that the highways covered, plus the discovery of huge petrolium reserves that dropped the price of operating them. We ran out of technology before we ran out of vehicle.

I know about the California mandates and that, but I don't believe they are causing EVs to be more accepted, I think the increasing acceptance and advancement of EVs beyond the niche hobbyist is what places like California based their date on.

I also don't think that date will stick as an all-in. I am pretty sure I said it elsewhere already, but I expect there to be exceptions for F-150s and up, because people towing TTs even in 2035 I can see having range concerns unless we really get on infrastructure changes.

Anyway, I really do agree with you for the most part. I can't say on the Tesla front. I know their financial health is largely held together by the fuel credits, but I look at that as them being able to use those credits to further drive down the cost they offer vehicles at (the sub-$40k Model 3) to improve adoption and still stay afloat. I think Tesla would have survived without them, but the Model 3 would be $3-5k more expensive per vehicle and adoption would have been slower.

But that's largely unprovable either way, since we don't yet have fully functional "What If" machines.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Quote: “For the F-150 Lightning, Mase said, “90% ordered the highest trim level and 80% ordered the extended-range battery. ... It was beyond our expectation.”

What is this guy referring to? My reservation does not have a specific trim associated with it, and certainly doesn’t have achieved “ordered” already!

I wonder if it is from the survey they sent out to some reservation holders?
https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/thr...urvey-email-before-and-after-tax-credit.4242/

 

[beatle]

The EV market today is a classic example of social engineering and it's still a work in progress. I agree with you that I don't want to go back to ICE vehicles but you and I are early products of that social engineering and are not yet the average American. The average American is still dependent on ICE vehicles and changing something that's so entrenched in society is going to be very very hard.

We have not turned the corner, far from it. This battle is just beginning and I think it's going to get very messy before it's done. There is an old saying, "one persons rights end where another's begin" and I can rephrase that as, "you don't have the right to pollute my air with your ICE".

But a lot of people do think they have the right to pollute the air with their ICEs because that is what they have always done. Your are not going to change the minds of a majority of people just because some low volume auto manufacturer is marginally successful selling electric vehicles to rich people. A lot of people if not most, and that includes people in auto manufacturing, are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the EV age and that's why government mandates are required.

There are a couple points there. EV owners are indeed not the average American, that's for sure, though I don't think I'd call myself a product of social engineering. I'm able to make a purchasing decision on its own merit, not at the direction of an EV influencer. Most EVs are still very much a premium product and priced out of the hands of the average Joe. In addition, even a well-off person living in a condo or apartment would likely struggle with an EV at present without a place to charge it at home. Some people are still not deterred by this and use public charging exclusively, but I don't advise my friends who are interested in EVs to look into them unless they can accept this tradeoff - and it's a big one.

As for the eco-terrorist quote, "you don't have the right to pollute my air with your ICE," you might want to keep that to yourself if you want to win anyone over to EV ownership, especially until they are legitimate EV options for every use case and demographic. There are plenty of rational arguments against EV ownership for every Tom, Dick, and Harry at this time. As you also said, "We have not turned the corner, far from it" so distant mandates currently serve as foreboding anti-EV fodder. It's true that some people may never change, but there is a good portion of the population (all of it?) that would convert if they're drawn in by benefits, not pushed in to EV ownership by heckling.

Right now the market is so hungry for reasonably priced EVs that companies are selling everything they can make. Let's just enjoy the incoming tide for a bit.

 

[bgalakazam]

I don't think we are there yet for EVs. Maybe 2035 will be closer. I see many big problems that HAVE to be resolved before we go 100% EV.

- Effect on electric grid. No need to provide examples of outages even without having EVs.
- USA still burns coal to produce electricity in many places. Are you really greener by having EVs?
- Apartment buildings / street parking / shared homes. How will you charge? Anybody can plug into your unit, etc. Not everybody has the privilege of living in a single home.
- General security. Somebody attaches to your charge port or cuts your cable, etc.
- Used car EV market. A lot of low-income Americans rely on your $1,000-$5,000 beater. Will EVs ever drop that low?
- Long-distance trips. Who will invest in supercharges throughout the country and in remote highways.
- Remote trips (mountain/countryside/etc).
- Battery production/disposal pollution.

Instead of nanny-state forcing an entire industry to change, give people the option. That is what is great about capitalism - money talks, supply and demand works. And don't get me started on how ICE vehicles account for a minute part of greenhouse emissions. Especially when the rest of the world outside the USA will not be 100% new EVs by 2035.

 

[BigTex22]

Agree with some of the other comments upthread. We’re easily 20+ years away from EV matching or exceeding all the requirements of a petrol based vehicle. And for all the press EV gets now, it’s still a minuscule amount of car buyers. Not to mention there are some other alternatives which might leap frog EV, like hydrogen fuel cell cars. In the meantime, I’m happy with my good ol’ gasoline engine - powerful and reliable.

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