$12,500 tax credit possible?

[greenne]

Food for thought...

Most of the proposals are still pushing the $80000 cap limit for the tax incentives. Ford would be wise to make sure at least the Lariet+ skates just under that limit. The tentative pricing guide had it at $79,474. In a perfect world Ford would squeeze all versions in there, but I just don't see Ford being able to cut the price by $10k.

If things are settled by Fall when we start ordering, it may be wise to try to keep the MSRP of the truck you order under $80k just in case.

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[sotek2345]

Food for thought...

Most of the proposals are still pushing the $80000 cap limit for the tax incentives. Ford would be wise to make sure at least the Lariet+ skates just under that limit. The tentative pricing guide had it at $79,474. In a perfect world Ford would squeeze all versions in there, but I just don't see Ford being able to cut the price by $10k.

If things are settled by Fall when we start ordering, it may be wise to try to keep the MSRP of the truck you order under $80k just in case.

I wouldn't be surprised if it went lower in negotiations either. NY just dropped theirs from a 60k limit to a 42k limit.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

More a case of data than opinion. EV's are roughly $15k more in cost and resulting sale price than equivalent ICE vehicles.

They also have range issues and other early adopter aspects that have people in a wait and see attitude when we need to incentivizing people to buy them, especially US made EV's, or US is going to be left behind as mfg and sales grow in EU and China where EV mfg and sales are mandatory.

And then there's the reason for the EV's, the climate change that has NY in a smokey haze from OR wildfires, the TX polar vortex to the unprecedented increase in hot weather nationwide, world wide. We need to be moving faster, temperatures rising.

Should be flat out $15k Federal credit that can be applied at purchase.

Wait, because a luxury product has competitive issues, the Federal government should assist a private citizen to pay for it using borrowed dollars that will be repaid by future generations? That’s rich.

Also, do a bit of reserach on forest fire history. Further, weather isn’t climate.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I wouldn't be surprised if it went lower in negotiations either. NY just dropped theirs from a 60k limit to a 42k limit.

There will be no surviving EV tax credit, full stop. It is on the cutting floor. The stats for demand have been presented to both sides on the hill, shocking both, and it is clear the industry has surpassed the need for further subsidy. I believe it was never needed, was happy to get them for my EV’s and green tech investments, but would have done them anyway, which I believe was the case for most buyers. At this point there is zero remaining logic. And, no there is no longer a significant EV cost premium, as proven with the Lightning pricing.

 

[greenne]

There will be no surviving EV tax credit, full stop. It is on the cutting floor. The stats for demand have been presented to both sides on the hill, shocking both, and it is clear the industry has surpassed the need for further subsidy. I believe it was never needed, was happy to get them for my EV’s and green tech investments, but would have done them anyway, which I believe was the case for most buyers. At this point there is zero remaining logic. And, no there is no longer a significant EV cost premium, as proven with the Lightning pricing.

Yeah...I guess we'll have to wait and see. <rolls eyes>

This isn't a demand thing, its a climate thing. AS far as needing a subsidy, I find it odd you'd say sucha thing when ICE vehicles vastly outnumber BEVs and will continue to do so in the immediate future. We are still several years away from widespread BEV adoption.. despite the advantages we all seem to realize. At worst the current tax credit will continue, but I'm sure the GM/Tesla lobby is pushing hard for it to be modified to allow those in.

I also find it comical you keep vomiting the ole "borrowed dollars" schtik when the past few years have brought us increased debt from tax cuts for the richest 2%, endless war, and continued corporate welfare. If you're really concerned about future generations, I'd suggest you looks at ways to combat climate change which will saddle our future children(and grandchildren) with an enormous cost in economic damage and health damage.

The whole point of a EV credit(as part of green energy plan) is to spend money NOW to avoid spending a whole hell of a lot more later.

Oh and as someone who's professional career was(is) in climate and weather, you being a bit evasive on your fire argument. Drought is a major cause of increased frequency(and intensity) of fires. A major cause of drought is a dry weather pattern which has been made worse by climate change. Some 95% of experts agree this is happening.

 

[FordLightning]

Yeah...I guess we'll have to wait and see. <rolls eyes>

This isn't a demand thing, its a climate thing. AS far as needing a subsidy, I find it odd you'd say sucha thing when ICE vehicles vastly outnumber BEVs and will continue to do so in the immediate future. We are still several years away from widespread BEV adoption.. despite the advantages we all seem to realize. At worst the current tax credit will continue, but I'm sure the GM/Tesla lobby is pushing hard for it to be modified to allow those in.

I also find it comical you keep vomiting the ole "borrowed dollars" schtik when the past few years have brought us increased debt from tax cuts for the richest 2%, endless war, and continued corporate welfare. If you're really concerned about future generations, I'd suggest you looks at ways to combat climate change which will saddle our future children(and grandchildren) with an enormous cost in economic damage and health damage.

The whole point of a EV credit(as part of green energy plan) is to spend money NOW to avoid spending a whole hell of a lot more later.

Oh and as someone who's professional career was(is) in climate and weather, you being a bit evasive on your fire argument. Drought is a major cause of increased frequency(and intensity) of fires. A major cause of drought is a dry weather pattern which has been made worse by climate change. Some 95% of experts agree this is happening.

If this is your over riding concern, then I suggest that ”you don’t care enough”.

I suggest cancelling any future vehicle order and revert to walking or cycling and truly living local with zero emissions.. I would also recommend getting off the computer ASAP, since this forum is not justification for using our precious resources. We all appreciate your help and commitment!

 

[greenne]

If this is your over riding concern, then I suggest that ”you don’t care enough”.

I suggest cancelling any future vehicle order and revert to walking or cycling and truly living local with zero emissions.. I would also recommend getting off the computer ASAP, since this forum is not justification for using our precious resources. We all appreciate your help and commitment!

Yes...because I'm the one who has gone out of the way to make this political every step of the way. Silly me.

 

[MickeyAO]

If you want to see where the OEMs are going, then I would suggest Gas Engines, and the People Behind Them, Are Cast Aside for Electric Vehicles - WSJ
I work in the Powertrain division at a research institute...3/4ths of the people in the Division work on designing and advancing ICE (others at the Institute work on deep-sea vehicles, spacecraft, and everything in between), and this article has them shaking. Fortunately, my Vice President of the Division saw the threat coming 11 years ago and I work in the Energy Storage Technology Center working closely with the Electrified Powertrain section. We are running several consortiums that are related to EVs to include the batteries and the fluids used in the EV.

This is from the Wall Street Journal, not some liberal or EV rag with wishful thinking. With this article in mind, there is no need for a tax incentive on the purchase of an EV (but I'll take it if available)

 

[MickeyAO]

A couple of key lines from the article

Transition not yet noticeable in showrooms, but industry resources have shifted. ‘We’re trying to make things change pretty quickly

His projects were no longer about advancing the engine, just nursing along existing technology

“We don’t want to be left making the best buggy whips,” said Chris Wallbank, chief executive of P.J. Wallbank Springs, Inc., an auto supplier in Port Huron, Mich.

By 2013, BorgWarner was notching record revenue and operating profit. But at an investor conference in New York, an analyst told BorgWarner’s executive team: “Your terminal value is zero. When the world goes electric, everything you make is worthless,” recalled Christopher Thomas, then the company’s chief technology officer. “That kind of shocked everybody.”

 

[EaglesPDX]

Wait, because a luxury product has competitive issues

Can assure you a $52k Tesla is not a "luxury product". It's expensive because it is an EV. Other than being an EV it's a stark and technically quirky product. I wanted a luxury car for $52k, it would not be a Tesla.

As noted before most of the Federal tax credit went to Leafs and Volts, hardly luxury cars.

Kona is hardly a luxury car but a Kona EV is $17k more than ICE and has less range.

Also the income to qualify for the full $7,500 ranges from $53k for single to $66k for married, again hardly "wealthy" which explains the Leafs and Volts.

First EV's like first ICE cars are expensive. It wasn't until Henry Musk got the numbers down in to the $40k range of current Teslas to match.

We need people into EV's faster than we are doing it and offering financial incentive is the best way to transition to EV's. We are not moving fast enough and the fire and ice of global warming are overtaking us.

"A controversial MIT study from 1972 forecast the collapse of civilization – and Gaya Herrington is here to deliver the bad news. The MIT scientists said we needed to act now to achieve a smooth transition and avoid costs,” Herrington told the Guardian this week. “That didn’t happen, so we’re seeing the impact of climate change.”

 

[MickeyAO]

Can assure you a $52k Tesla is not a "luxury product". It's expensive because it is an EV. Other than being an EV it's a stark and technically quirky product. I wanted a luxury car for $52k, it would not be a Tesla.

As noted before most of the Federal tax credit went to Leafs and Volts, hardly luxury cars.

Kona is hardly a luxury car but a Kona EV is $17k more than ICE and has less range.

Also the income to qualify for the full $7,500 ranges from $53k for single to $66k for married, again hardly "wealthy" which explains the Leafs and Volts.

First EV's like first ICE cars are expensive. It wasn't until Henry Musk got the numbers down in to the $40k range of current Teslas to match.

We need people into EV's faster than we are doing it and offering financial incentive is the best way to transition to EV's. We are not moving fast enough and the fire and ice of global warming are overtaking us.

"A controversial MIT study from 1972 forecast the collapse of civilization – and Gaya Herrington is here to deliver the bad news. The MIT scientists said we needed to act now to achieve a smooth transition and avoid costs,” Herrington told the Guardian this week. “That didn’t happen, so we’re seeing the impact of climate change.”

One thing I take great pains in doing is to not cherry-pick articles. I want to make sure they are from centrist publications like the Wall Street Journal (which may be more right-leaning than centrist). The Guardian article you quoted is left-leaning and basically says 'one of three things pointed out in 1972 MIT article might be coming true (Resouce constraints and population growth are not considered as big of a problem as stated by the original article).

While I don't disagree with the article, based on their own statement, they show their own bias and will not convince others on the spectrum that we may have a problem:

The Guardian views the climate crisis as the defining issue of our time. It is already here. Mega-droughts, wildfires, flooding and extreme heat are making growing parts of our planet uninhabitable. As parts of the world emerge from the pandemic, carbon emissions are again on the rise, risking a rare opportunity to transition to a more sustainable future.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The Guardian article...

Is an interview with the MIT scientific study lead who got all the predictions right in 1972 MIT study, that's why everyone, not just Guardian was interviewing her and other scientists who had science based predictions that have proven out such as Amazon rain forest becoming a carbon contributor vs. a carbon sink.

But we digress, if someone doesn't accept the science and facts at this point, just move on.

To the reason for the EV rebate which is to greatly accelerate EV adoption to cut green house gas emissions. Senator's Wyden plan, referenced above does indeed propose a full tax credit which does not require a corresponding tax liability, removes the limits that US mfgs GM and Tesla have reached and which Ford would reach in '22 and increases the amount. Now to get it passed.

It is tax policy so fits the requirements of the reconciliation bill.

If it passes that would add up to $15k subsidy for me for the F150EV at $76k. Sheesh from a $25k Subaru to a $52k Tesla to a $75k Ford F150EV, this putting money where mouth is is a jawbreaker.

Subaru $25k net
Tesla $47k net
F150 Lightning $60k net.

 

[FordLightning]

If you want to see where the OEMs are going, then I would suggest Gas Engines, and the People Behind Them, Are Cast Aside for Electric Vehicles - WSJ
I work in the Powertrain division at a research institute...3/4ths of the people in the Division work on designing and advancing ICE (others at the Institute work on deep-sea vehicles, spacecraft, and everything in between), and this article has them shaking. Fortunately, my Vice President of the Division saw the threat coming 11 years ago and I work in the Energy Storage Technology Center working closely with the Electrified Powertrain section. We are running several consortiums that are related to EVs to include the batteries and the fluids used in the EV.

This is from the Wall Street Journal, not some liberal or EV rag with wishful thinking. With this article in mind, there is no need for a tax incentive on the purchase of an EV (but I'll take it if available)

I read that article this weekend and it was very well written. Another industry related article was posted today.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/rush-t...bdp32kdkuth2w5g&reflink=article_copyURL_share

 

[EaglesPDX]

And, no there is no longer a significant EV cost premium, as proven with the Lightning pricing.

Huge cost premium.

150 kWh battery pack = $15,000
Titan 5.4 engine = $2,000

Pricing Ford is matching the pricing of the F150 gas but that is not enough to get someone to switch from a gas to an EV with the range, charging, towing and other issues. A gas vehicle will be much more practical.

Right now, unless an early adopter looking to cut one's green house gas emissions, there needs to be an incentive.

"The Most Radical Thing About Ford's F-150 Lightning? The Price. After tax credits, the base model of the electric pickup will be cheaper than its gas-fueled sibling, removing what has been a big barrier for EV sales."

And they do mean "radical" as Ford is eating the cost difference which no other mfg is doing as one can see with $56k Hyundai's or VW's or Kia's or Chevy's, none are luxury car mfgs or status brands.

The Wyden plan has the incentive stopping when we reach 50% EV's which makes sense.

 

[ricardos]

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