EA DCFC chargers are still free ? Line of EVs waiting to charge - how long is this going to last ?

[greenne]

You're absolutely right. It could be a larger purchase than I implied given the max amount they get out of it. It could also be a 30 minute wait in line followed by 30 minutes of charging to fill up 50% of the battery. Then once you deduct the price to fill up at home with home, it still brings it well under $20 in savings. If it takes me an hour or more outside of work hours to save that much money, it's going to take a lot of my time to save up enough money to make a material impact on my budget. As someone else said, my time is worth more than that.

I apologize if my original post came off as condescending. I just don't feel like most low value free things are worth the time investment they typically require.

No worries.. I agree people will run to anything FREE without any analysis. Its a psychological thing even if it costs them more in the long term.

I'll also say having struggled with money at one time in my life its easy now(being better off) to blow off $5 cost as being worth it time wise VS when I was struggling to make ends meet.

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[Toby57]

Thank you Nathan. It was not my intent to be or sound sarcastic.
You explained very well. I did not look at it as a payback on investment.
I have always looked at transportation as a cost.

 

[greenne]

Please correct me if I am wrong Nathan.
I do not own an EV.
How would it be marketable to pay Peter so you don't have to pay Paul.
ie More money for EV because one does not have to buy gas.
I watch my X's and O's on my ICE F-150 very closely.

I'll do you one better...

2022 F150 XL supercrew, 4x4, with base engine--ICE MSRP: $45390

2023 Lightning PRO AWD, 4x4, -- MSRP: $46974

I think you can see where this is going...

 

[greenne]

Thank you Nathan. It was not my intent to be or sound sarcastic.
You explained very well. I did not look at it as a payback on investment.
I have always looked at transportation as a cost.

No problem. Happy to help.

As I mentioned each person will be different depending upon usage and needs. But there is the POTENTIAL for financial gains and I believe a lot of people gloss over that because of sticker shock.

In big vehicles especially, fuel costs can add up. That's NOT even taking into acct what happens if oil skyrockets to $5/gal + again...

If you are new to EVs all I can say is test drive one. The Lightning is the best driving most capable f150 ever. You will be amazed at how much power it has, how smooth it is, and how it handles like a go kart..while being able to tow and haul like(or better than) any f150 before.

Don't say I didn't warn you..it is addictive..you'll want one!!

 

[ExCivilian]

The issue is less that people don't know how to do an analysis but that the costs/benefits are often overstated.

For example, comparing the price of an unavailable trim (Pro) to an ICE XL isn't a realistic comparison in my opinion.

Price difference= $14505.... $1450 per year LESS in fuel ---> potential 10yr payback assuming gas prices stay constant and assuming you get EPA fuel economy.

Also does not factor-- tax credits, other service costs(oil changes, transmission fluid changes, etc), repair costs, potential difference in resale and/or vehicle life

Therein lies the rub: it's a hard sell to tell someone they're going to "break even" years after they no longer own the vehicle or when it's due for replacement.

In a 10 year ownership period at roughly 15,000 miles per year (which is about 20% higher than the national average) a modern vehicle will have no more than 15 oil changes and potentially 3-5 transmission oil changes (assuming the owner does any). A property maintained brake system will have had its fluid changed roughly five times during that ownership period (changing every other year although I've never personally met anyone other than myself who does that) and might have pads changed in that time...but I doubt more than once during ownership.

Everyone will find prices in their own areas but there shouldn't be a wide spread. If you calculate it out you'd probably find less than $5,000 in maintenance expenses over that 10 year period. Major components would either be under warranty or statistically unlikely to fail.

If we instead analyze an older vehicle, and in particular one that isn't on the latest/greatest synthetic fluids, we'd find the maintenance intervals double or triple but the costs drop by tenths. For example, my VW's oil changes cost me roughly $80 while my RAM's aren't more than $30 if that.

I would not be surprised to find my ownerships costs exceed an ICE because of the weight on my tires alone. My last set of tires were nearly $2,000. If I have to replace them every two years, which I would expect to do if I was driving 15K per year, I'd have $8,000 in tires alone by the end of the ten years vs. $4,000 for the ICE after two changes every three years (and possibly more).

In fact, there are several articles that have been written now on the health dangers of EVs in regard to the fine particles they'll be creating by the additional tire wear.

I'm a proponent of EVs and I enjoy them for a lot of non-economic reasons. They even can make economic sense (I saw one person with over 20K on their Lightning odo already) for some people but I don't agree it's a cut and dry foregone conclusion that some people just aren't understanding correctly.

One last thing is that it's always more expensive to suffer impoverishment. It's more expensive to eat, financial terms are often tilted against those with less means either via higher interest rates or lower ceilings. Some people simply don't have $40K to spend on a vehicle no matter how much it saves them in the long run. The amount of people who must rely on a sub-$10K--even sub-$3K--vehicle seems to be vastly underestimated or ignored by politicians and EV proponents. That's ignoring the issue of where these vehicles would be parked and charged by someone in this economic situation.

 

[hturnerfamily]

I certainly didn't get my PRO in order to save the planet, not that it could, anyway - I got it because I like it and think that it's a nicer and better way to move, travel, haul, tow, and 'carry' things, as well as people.

Yes, there are the typical discussions of 'comparing' ICE to EV, but most folks aren't buying an EV simply because they 'compared' the difference and found it might come out on top - they bought the EV because they WANT the EV.

What we buy rarely has to do with what's 'cheaper' or 'most efficient' in the long term.

Otherwise we'd all be in an original LEAF, or a plug-in Prius. Not me.

 

[orangefirefish]

As in, only one of those can be actually purchased?

I'll do you one better...

2022 F150 XL supercrew, 4x4, with base engine--ICE MSRP: $45390

2023 Lightning PRO AWD, 4x4, -- MSRP: $46974

I think you can see where this is going...

 

[greenne]

The issue is less that people don't know how to do an analysis but that the costs/benefits are often overstated.

For example, comparing the price of an unavailable trim (Pro) to an ICE XL isn't a realistic comparison in my opinion.


Therein lies the rub: it's a hard sell to tell someone they're going to "break even" years after they no longer own the vehicle or when it's due for replacement.

In a 10 year ownership period at roughly 15,000 miles per year (which is about 20% higher than the national average) a modern vehicle will have no more than 15 oil changes and potentially 3-5 transmission oil changes (assuming the owner does any). A property maintained brake system will have had its fluid changed roughly five times during that ownership period (changing every other year although I've never personally met anyone other than myself who does that) and might have pads changed in that time...but I doubt more than once during ownership.

Everyone will find prices in their own areas but there shouldn't be a wide spread. If you calculate it out you'd probably find less than $5,000 in maintenance expenses over that 10 year period. Major components would either be under warranty or statistically unlikely to fail.

If we instead analyze an older vehicle, and in particular one that isn't on the latest/greatest synthetic fluids, we'd find the maintenance intervals double or triple but the costs drop by tenths. For example, my VW's oil changes cost me roughly $80 while my RAM's aren't more than $30 if that.

I would not be surprised to find my ownerships costs exceed an ICE because of the weight on my tires alone. My last set of tires were nearly $2,000. If I have to replace them every two years, which I would expect to do if I was driving 15K per year, I'd have $8,000 in tires alone by the end of the ten years vs. $4,000 for the ICE after two changes every three years (and possibly more).

In fact, there are several articles that have been written now on the health dangers of EVs in regard to the fine particles they'll be creating by the additional tire wear.

I'm a proponent of EVs and I enjoy them for a lot of non-economic reasons. They even can make economic sense (I saw one person with over 20K on their Lightning odo already) for some people but I don't agree it's a cut and dry foregone conclusion that some people just aren't understanding correctly.

One last thing is that it's always more expensive to suffer impoverishment. It's more expensive to eat, financial terms are often tilted against those with less means either via higher interest rates or lower ceilings. Some people simply don't have $40K to spend on a vehicle no matter how much it saves them in the long run. The amount of people who must rely on a sub-$10K--even sub-$3K--vehicle seems to be vastly underestimated or ignored by politicians and EV proponents. That's ignoring the issue of where these vehicles would be parked and charged by someone in this economic situation.

Based on the analysis I've done and seen I disagree...but as I said YMMV.

I don't know where you're shopping for tires, but $2000 is absurd. There are plenty of good quality options even in the larger sizes ~$1000. I also think the weight issue of EVs is overstated in the case of a larger EV(trucks, SUVs). Trucks by there very nature are carrying around more weight... whether gas or electric.

Studies have shown it is estimated EVs will require 40% less in maintenance cost than equivalent ICE vehicles.

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1780970
https://insideevs.com/news/527165/study-evs-ownership-40percent-lower/

So I don't think its a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination, but EVs can and will be lower cost in numerous use cases.

 

[ExCivilian]

Based on the analysis I've done and seen I disagree...but as I said YMMV.

I don't know where you're shopping for tires, but $2000 is absurd. There are plenty of good quality options even in the larger sizes ~$1000. I also think the weight issue of EVs is overstated in the case of a larger EV(trucks, SUVs). Trucks by there very nature are carrying around more weight... whether gas or electric.

Studies have shown it is estimated EVs will require 40% less in maintenance cost than equivalent ICE vehicles.

Yes, I've seen all of the so-called analyses. I'm basing my numbers off years of EV and ICE ownership where I do my own maintenance. I don't need to read another study--I listed out the major maintenance items and a rough total cost. Any person here can add to that list and use their own local numbers to see how close I hit their reality. Seems to me to be more useful exercise than reading someone else's analysis--everyone in this discussion drives so we all know roughly how much oil changes and brake jobs cost.

Cars aren't anywhere near the weight of trucks. The conversation cannot be that "trucks are heavy so everyone driving EVs is no biggie." Sure, trucks have always been heavy compared to cars but most people don't drive trucks so it's a strange way to frame the conversation.

A typical passenger car is 3K lbs whereas a small truck is 6K. A typical passenger EV is heavier than a typical passenger car and lighter than a small truck...but stating it like that ignores the fact manufacturers are moving away from passenger cars altogether.

I don't understand how anyone concerned with emissions and breathing fine particulate pollutants wouldn't see the problems associated with moving the bulk of drivers out of econoboxes into SUVs and then magnifying that problem by slapping an additional 500lbs under the SUV.

Regardless, my RAM is 9K so I feel comfortable in both my tire choice and concluding analyses that use "50K tires" in their costs and assume someone is going to get 4-5 years from them are simply wrong. If someone causes a collision with me they run a significant risk of killing themselves under my rig so I don't skimp on tires and I don't run them to the nubs.

Here are my current tires: https://www.americastire.com/buy-tires/nitto-terra-grappler-g2.

I also think it's absurd to pay $2,000 for tires but that opinion plus $2,000 is what it took to shoe my rig

One of my primary concerns from what I've seen here and elsewhere is people who drive passenger cars treating their trucks like big cars.

EDIT: BTW, I read through the report you linked and you'll find that for vehicles 1-5 years old they estimate a yearly M&R (maintenance and repair) cost of $500/yr for vehicles 1-5 years old (and slightly over $600/yr for vehicles 6-10 years old). Therefore, my $5,000 estimated total cost of maintenance and repair for a 10 year old vehicle was off by roughly $650 or in other words right on the money.

 

[greenne]

Yes, I've seen all of the so-called analyses. I'm basing my numbers off years of EV and ICE ownership where I do my own maintenance. I don't need to read another study--I listed out the major maintenance items and a rough total cost. Any person here can add to that list and use their own local numbers to see how close I hit their reality. Seems to me to be more useful exercise than reading someone else's analysis--everyone in this discussion drives so we all know roughly how much oil changes and brake jobs cost.

Cars aren't anywhere near the weight of trucks. The conversation cannot be that "trucks are heavy so everyone driving EVs is no biggie." Sure, trucks have always been heavy compared to cars but most people don't drive trucks so it's a strange way to frame the conversation.

A typical passenger car is 3K lbs whereas a small truck is 6K. A typical passenger EV is heavier than a typical passenger car and lighter than a small truck...but stating it like that ignores the fact manufacturers are moving away from passenger cars altogether.

I don't understand how anyone concerned with emissions and breathing fine particulate pollutants wouldn't see the problems associated with moving the bulk of drivers out of econoboxes into SUVs and then magnifying that problem by slapping an additional 500lbs under the SUV.

Regardless, my RAM is 9K so I feel comfortable in both my tire choice and concluding analyses that use "50K tires" in their costs and assume someone is going to get 4-5 years from them are simply wrong. If someone causes a collision with me they run a significant risk of killing themselves under my rig so I don't skimp on tires and I don't run them to the nubs.

Here are my current tires: https://www.americastire.com/buy-tires/nitto-terra-grappler-g2.

I also think it's absurd to pay $2,000 for tires but that opinion plus $2,000 is what it took to shoe my rig

One of my primary concerns from what I've seen here and elsewhere is people who drive passenger cars treating their trucks like big cars.

So you're basing your opinion on one use case, instead of statistics(which is hundreds to thousands of data points).

Your concern seems to be people comparing cars to trucks..my comments were comparing truck to truck. I don't see the point in comparing apples to oranges and I don't think it would be sucessful try to argue an EV truck is more efficient that an ICE car.

If the RAM meets your needs, great. It's always a compromise. Driving what you have until it breaks is always going to be cheaper than buying new(you'll never save enough on efficiency alone).

My point was IF a person is going to buy a truck no matter what...the EV is competitive now when you look at lifetime cost. I'm surprised manufacturers haven't marketed that. I imagine there could be similar crossover in multiple weight/use classes of vehicles.

Note- to get this thread back on subject this will be my last comment on ICE vs EV-- there's better threads for that

 

[ExCivilian]

So you're basing your opinion on one use case, instead of statistics(which is hundreds to thousands of data points).

I listed out the major maintenance items with standard maintenance intervals.

I invited anyone interested to add to the list and calculate their local costs.

But, to your point, I read through the report you linked.

On page 74 you'll find they estimate a yearly M&R (maintenance and repair) cost of $500/yr for vehicles 1-5 years old (and slightly over $600/yr for vehicles 6-10 years old). Therefore, my $5,000 estimated total cost of maintenance and repair for a 10 year old vehicle was off by roughly $650 or in other words right on the money.

Here's the problem with doing what you're doing: everyone drives a car already!

Everyone knows how much it costs to keep their vehicles on the road and they know it's bullshit when some EVer tells them they're spending so much money somewhere that simply isn't true.

We're not comparing cars to trucks. Not even comparing trucks to trucks. The issue is the trend of vehicles becoming heavier over time on tires that are designed for efficiency at the expense of longevity and the implications that has on air quality.

EDIT: again, I'm a proponent of EVs. This will be our 4th. That's a separate issue from recognizing that telling people how much money they'll save by buying a $50-80K vehicle is absurd to them. It doesn't even matter if it's true because the entry price is ridiculous to the average US worker and it's even worse that it's unlikely to be true for the average driver.

Then you get to the point of what about after the ten year mark. To the lower income worker who plans to keep a vehicle beyond 10 years they are far better off with the ICE than an EV. Millions of aftermarket parts, millions of places to take the vehicle for extensive repairs, and much of what needs to be done can be DIYed if all else fails. None of those factors are currently true for EVs and won't be for a very long time if it occurs in our lifetimes at all.

 

[metroshot]

Gee I wonder how this thread became derailed...

 

[Toby57]

I think it was me. Sorry.

 

[Avocadodude]

Gee I wonder how this thread became derailed...

I’m just here to learn about free charging

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