Towing thoughts/questions

[minirx7]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a base fact. Yes, if you do not condition the cells, you can and will lose 50% or more of capacity (as demonstrated in my -30C cold crank testing). This is a real problem on EVs that use passive temperature management (Leaf, eGolf, and even the Soul with forced air cooling). When you move to active temperature management, you can really limit the losses with preconditioning.

It's no different in the losses of an ICE engine until you get it warmed up (which my Powertrain Engineers get on me about the how cold I run my current truck due to my limited driving).

What do you mean stop stating this as a base fact? I had the 2018 Nissan Leaf SL (it doenst have cooling but it does warm the battery in cold). Just running the car my stated range goes from 240km (actual summer range isa bout 215kms) down to about 120kms at best.

I expect it to be slightly better with my 2021 Model S Refresh, but the cold does impact the battery (espeically in Canada), and running the heat (even with the heat pump) has major impact. Also highway speeds really draw the battery down. twice with my leaf i had to almost get towed because i didnt expect the battery to take a massive hit. Driving with more people also has a dramtic hit on range.

Curious, do you/ have you owned and driven an EV on a daily?

Sponsored

 

[minirx7]

Yes - but the preconditioning assumes you can connect to shore power every night. I don't believe the batteries will precondition unless plugged in (at least that is how the Mach-e seems to operate). I will only be plugging in once a week or so since my wife will be plugging in her Mach-e (I guess I could plug into a 120V outlet if we expect a really cold night....)

On my Leaf, the battery warmer activiates as long as it was over 15 or 20% (cant remember) when it gets really cold out which also means if not pllugged in, it will draw the battery down.

 

[vandy1981]

What do you mean stop stating this as a base fact? I had the 2018 Nissan Leaf SL (it doenst have cooling but it does warm the battery in cold).

Curious, do you/ have you owned and driven an EV on a daily?

I think his point is that the leaf uses a resistive heating element which is super inefficient. Your MS and many other EVs use a heat pump which is more efficient in many climates.

At the moment we don't know if the F-150 Lightning will have a heat pump. The Mustang Mach e does not have one so the odds are that the F-150 won't either.

If you are towing a trailer and truly need the maximum range you would likely plug the truck in and set a preconditioning timer to optimize the battery and cabin temperature before departing. I have a vehicle with a heat pump but I still precondition the battery if I'm taking a long trip.

Also, I think @MickeyAO's career is focused on studying batteries and electric drivetrains so he probably knows more than we do, lol.

 

[minirx7]

I think his point is that the leaf uses a resistive heating element which is super inefficient. Your MS and many other EVs use a heat pump which is more efficient in many climates.

At the moment we don't know if the F-150 Lightning will have a heat pump. The Mustang Mach e does not have one so the odds are that the F-150 won't either.

If you are towing a trailer and truly need the maximum range you would likely plug the truck in and set a preconditioning timer to optimize the battery and cabin temperature before departing. I have a vehicle with a heat pump but I still precondition the battery if I'm taking a long trip.

Also, I think @MickeyAO's career is focused on studying batteries and electric drivetrains so he probably knows more than we do, lol.

My leaf uses a heat pump as well sinc ei have the SL (the lower models use resistive heating). I am just stating my real world mileage and i did experience 30-50% clean consistently.

I understand the theory, but claiming my base fact based on my own experience on range driving an EV for 3 years in Canada. This is also echoed with friends with EV's as well.

 

[kdkool]

It may or may not be that extreme, it is hard to tell. The shape of the trailer will make a huge difference as well - a flat deck will tow a lot easier than a 10' tall box trailer would.

The thing to consider is the F150L is a lot higher and bigger so it would split more of the air causing less trailer drag than a Model X would have. It will still be a noticeable drop on the highway, but until it is tested no one will know for sure exactly how much of a difference. I'm just going off the interview with a Ford employee (I think it was Darren Palmer) that they said it isn't as big of a drop as you would think.
Since the F150L is not super efficient or aerodynamic to begin with, it isn't as big as a difference as a car that is designed to be very efficient and aerodynamic.

The hit will be great. I can tell you that my ICE F150 gets 23mpg highway unladen. Same truck pulling a 23ft airstream (~5000lb) camper gets 12mpg. Same truck pulling a uhaul car carrier with a 3000lb car gets about 13mpg. So going off from my own personal experience, I'm expecting a ~50% hit on total range when the lightning is towing ~5000lbs.

 

[precab]

Also people who have campers and have never pulled a trailer or do it like 5 times a year or less. I can backup my 12 foot livestock trailer fairly well most of the time but the 20 foot camper is a lot more difficult as it is also taller and wider.

As one who tows 2 weekends a month, trying to take longer trips in an EV or Lightning ....the future is problematic. Even level 3 charging stations on freeways are not set up to have a trailer at the parking spot. Having to take a long freeway trip would require dropping the trailer nearby then go charge.

Adding a high end portable generator to charge in a parking lot over lunch on a trip .....the charging rate is not even close to ideal for long trips.

 

[astricklin]

As one who tows 2 weekends a month, trying to take longer trips in an EV or Lightning ....the future is problematic. Even level 3 charging stations on freeways are not set up to have a trailer at the parking spot. Having to take a long freeway trip would require dropping the trailer nearby then go charge.

Adding a high end portable generator to charge in a parking lot over lunch on a trip .....the charging rate is not even close to ideal for long trips.

The future isn't problematic, you'll still be able to buy a gas truck for the next 10 years at least and probably longer.
As far as using a portable generator. Got a 10 hour lunch break?

 

[Easycamper]

Also thinking about trailers. Having trailer brakes would lose energy that could be used for regen. Might be better off without to a point.

I wonder how one-pedal driving will work with trailer brakes. Will the brake controller only apply the trailer brakes when the brake pedal is pressed?

 

[precab]

The future isn't problematic, you'll still be able to buy a gas truck for the next 10 years at least and probably longer.
As far as using a portable generator. Got a 10 hour lunch break?

This is the reality.......

 

[TRP]

I wonder how one-pedal driving will work with trailer brakes. Will the brake controller only apply the trailer brakes when the brake pedal is pressed?

Well, that's a good question. The brake lights do activate when using 1PD so they could activate the trailer brakes. Or, you could just reach down and activate them from the brake controller itself. ?‍

 

[fitek]

Just another data point but for RC airplanes and quadcopters, folks in my club heat their batteries in winter. Even just leaving them in your pockets makes a big difference. However, the batteries are exposed to cold airflow once the craft is flying and range drops off then. If you fly like a maniac, you can generate a lot of heat, but you run the battery down thanks to the higher current draw. Might as well send it.

A pack that lasts 4 minutes in summer will last about 90 seconds left in a cold car while its snowing. Warmed up, I'd expect about 2.5-3 minutes.

 

[MickeyAO]

Well, that's a good question. The brake lights do activate when using 1PD so they could activate the trailer brakes. Or, you could just reach down and activate them from the brake controller itself. ?‍

As I discovered during some of our testings, not all EVs have the brake lights activate during regen, the same as manual transmissions don't activate the brake light when you downshift.

 

[TRP]

As I discovered during some of our testings, not all EVs have the brake lights activate during regen, the same as manual transmissions don't activate the brake light when you downshift.

Fair enough, my experience is with the Mach E where they do. Learn something new every day if you're not careful

 

[adoublee]

As I discovered during some of our testings, not all EVs have the brake lights activate during regen, the same as manual transmissions don't activate the brake light when you downshift.

Which vehicles, and were all levels of regen tested if variable?

 

[MickeyAO]

Which vehicles, and were all levels of regen tested if variable?

Truthfully, we have tested so many vehicles that I don't remember which ones don't activate, and it's not something we really document for our consortium members. It's more like anecdotal information as we are driving to the test track. Do you all think this is important and something I should be including in our reports? Not that you will be seeing the reports, but still.

Sponsored