Towing thoughts/questions

[vandy1981]

2018 Nissan Leaf, so i bought Tesla (picked up a new 21 Model S last friday). Night and day. I cannot imagine you can comfortable tow long distances and not be worried about range anxiety

I would hope that the comparison would be like night and day--you're comparing a three year old, $25,000 vehicle that relies on a dying Lvl3 standard and an air-cooled battery to a brand-new, $100K+ EV.

The F150L will be a great towing rig for tradesman who need to tow trailers to jobs around town, people who need to tow their boat 20 minutes to the lake, or people who don't take their RVs more than a few hundred miles from home.

It's not going to be a long-haul towing rig, nor is any other 1st gen electric truck, Tesla or otherwise.

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[SteffanG]

.
Note, winter time, you lose about 30-50% range. Speeds above 100km/h (60mph) takes a larger toll on range as well. Towing absolute kills your range (they tested a Model X towing 5000lbs and the range dropped by 60%). Combine that with a charging network that is still in its early stages, woudl make me very scared to go on long RV/road trips.

You will take a range hit when towing, but it will not be as much as the model X. The X is designed as a fairly good aerodynamic car that is both lower to the ground and lower roof height. The worse aerodynamics of the F150L means range wont take as much of a hit.
It was also said in an interview with Ford that towing won't affect range as much as you think.

 

[LightningShow]

But are they?......I'll wait and see if it actually happens.

They'd be crazy not to now that the industry is releasing so many new EVs. When Tesla was pretty much the only game in town it made sense to use it to build their market leadership position. They've done that, keeping it exclusive is a huge missed opportunity. I'm certain it's been on their business roadmap from day one to eventually make the network public.

 

[shutterbug]

They'd be crazy not to now that the industry is releasing so many new EVs. When Tesla was pretty much the only game in town it made sense to use it to build their market leadership position. They've done that, keeping it exclusive is a huge missed opportunity. I'm certain it's been on their business roadmap from day one to eventually make the network public.

Yeah, because no company has ever pissed away a market leading position through general dumbassery

I don't know anything about Tesla's roadmap, but they've claiming that they're about to open supercharger network to non-Teslas for several years now. When/if they do open it, it will also matter as to how they will open.

 

[fitek]

I'm trying to understand the use case for the trailer assist stuff (not more tow capacity or integrated brake controller).

I can reverse 42 feet of van + trailer into a 42 foot by 8 foot spot, sideways on a steep hill with only the mirrors in about 90 seconds. I'm not sure what I'd be buying getting this option. I don't think I have any exceptional skill, just a terrible driveway.

Does this 360 camera stuff actually make life a lot easier?

Local boat ramp is really tricky too but after half a dozen launches you generally figure it out. Or maybe not cuz I see a lot of people doing a go around multiple times, or banging up their boats and trailers while the wife is standing on the dock yelling "stop stop stop!".

 

[KevinTriplett]

I'm an engineer and can usually figure out acronyms, but what is ER and SR?

 

[DadBald]

Extended Range and Standard Range - referring to the battery size.

 

[tkeru408]

I'm trying to understand the use case for the trailer assist stuff (not more tow capacity or integrated brake controller).

I can reverse 42 feet of van + trailer into a 42 foot by 8 foot spot, sideways on a steep hill with only the mirrors in about 90 seconds. I'm not sure what I'd be buying getting this option. I don't think I have any exceptional skill, just a terrible driveway.

Does this 360 camera stuff actually make life a lot easier?

Local boat ramp is really tricky too but after half a dozen launches you generally figure it out. Or maybe not cuz I see a lot of people doing a go around multiple times, or banging up their boats and trailers while the wife is standing on the dock yelling "stop stop stop!".

The real benefit is for people that are not already proficient. For someone such as yourself that is already proficient at backing up a trailer, the extra tech features might make your life a little easier but it won't be a game changer. The real value in the technology is for those people who aren't already proficient, as it will make them proficient much more quickly. I rarely had to back up a trailer and I could muddle through it if necessary but I was never very good at it and totally lacked confidence. Then I got a boat, and started actually using my Pro Trailer Backup Assist since I would be regularly backing it up. Night and day difference. It's such an easy technology to use and gives me total confidence at the boat ramp. (This is on my '18 F150, so it doesn't have all the latest and greatest tech that comes with the package in '21 and beyond.)

 

[astricklin]

The real benefit is for people that are not already proficient. For someone such as yourself that is already proficient at backing up a trailer, the extra tech features might make your life a little easier but it won't be a game changer. The real value in the technology is for those people who aren't already proficient, as it will make them proficient much more quickly. I rarely had to back up a trailer and I could muddle through it if necessary but I was never very good at it and totally lacked confidence. Then I got a boat, and started actually using my Pro Trailer Backup Assist since I would be regularly backing it up. Night and day difference. It's such an easy technology to use and gives me total confidence at the boat ramp. (This is on my '18 F150, so it doesn't have all the latest and greatest tech that comes with the package in '21 and beyond.)

Also people who have campers and have never pulled a trailer or do it like 5 times a year or less. I can backup my 12 foot livestock trailer fairly well most of the time but the 20 foot camper is a lot more difficult as it is also taller and wider.

 

[cts888]

You will take a range hit when towing, but it will not be as much as the model X. The X is designed as a fairly good aerodynamic car that is both lower to the ground and lower roof height. The worse aerodynamics of the F150L means range wont take as much of a hit.
It was also said in an interview with Ford that towing won't affect range as much as you think.

I would like to know more about this. Hypothetically lets say as an example:
Model X averages 3.5miles/kwh but when towing 5000 lbs that number gets dropped in to 2m/kwh.
F150 lightning averages 2.5miles/kwh but when towing 5k pounds that number goes to 2m/kwh

So the ford which has less range normally would pull a heavy load a lot further than a more effecient model Y due to the battery capacity (130ish kw compared to 100kw)

Is that how extreme you think it could be or are those numbers probably way off?

 

[SteffanG]

It may or may not be that extreme, it is hard to tell. The shape of the trailer will make a huge difference as well - a flat deck will tow a lot easier than a 10' tall box trailer would.

The thing to consider is the F150L is a lot higher and bigger so it would split more of the air causing less trailer drag than a Model X would have. It will still be a noticeable drop on the highway, but until it is tested no one will know for sure exactly how much of a difference. I'm just going off the interview with a Ford employee (I think it was Darren Palmer) that they said it isn't as big of a drop as you would think.
Since the F150L is not super efficient or aerodynamic to begin with, it isn't as big as a difference as a car that is designed to be very efficient and aerodynamic.

 

[minirx7]

But are they?......I'll wait and see if it actually happens.

I really hope not. I just picked up a 21 model S, and would hate to share my charger with my own F150 Lightning lol!

 

[Erik]

I would like to know more about this. Hypothetically lets say as an example:
Model X averages 3.5miles/kwh but when towing 5000 lbs that number gets dropped in to 2m/kwh.
F150 lightning averages 2.5miles/kwh but when towing 5k pounds that number goes to 2m/kwh

I think it is easier to estimate by inverting the unit to wh per mile. If a model X uses 285 wh/m without a trailer and 500 wh/m with a trailer, then the trailer added 215 wh/m. If an F150 uses 500 wh/m without a trailer, then it may use 715 wh/m with a trailer.

The trailer may add less wh/m when towing with the F150 as it deflects more air than the model x.

 

[MickeyAO]

Note, winter time, you lose about 30-50% range.

I really wish people would stop stating this as a base fact. Yes, if you do not condition the cells, you can and will lose 50% or more of capacity (as demonstrated in my -30C cold crank testing). This is a real problem on EVs that use passive temperature management (Leaf, eGolf, and even the Soul with forced air cooling). When you move to active temperature management, you can really limit the losses with preconditioning.

It's no different in the losses of an ICE engine until you get it warmed up (which my Powertrain Engineers get on me about the how cold I run my current truck due to my limited driving).

 

[sotek2345]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a base fact. Yes, if you do not condition the cells, you can and will lose 50% or more of capacity (as demonstrated in my -30C cold crank testing). This is a real problem on EVs that use passive temperature management (Leaf, eGolf, and even the Soul with forced air cooling). When you move to active temperature management, you can really limit the losses with preconditioning.

It's no different in the losses of an ICE engine until you get it warmed up (which my Powertrain Engineers get on me about the how cold I run my current truck due to my limited driving).

Yes - but the preconditioning assumes you can connect to shore power every night. I don't believe the batteries will precondition unless plugged in (at least that is how the Mach-e seems to operate). I will only be plugging in once a week or so since my wife will be plugging in her Mach-e (I guess I could plug into a 120V outlet if we expect a really cold night....)

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