Would I still qualify for current federal rebate?

[ExCivilian]

I didn’t mention Rivian (for good reason)

What good reason did you have to intentionally not mention Rivian when you claimed that only non-domestic manufacturers were making public announcements?

Rivian is a domestic manufacturer and they're making these statements.

You incorrectly labeled Fisker as a non-domestic manufacturer so you can drop the attitude regarding that. In fact, just drop the attitude entirely since multiple members have mentioned it's dragging the thread down...

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[cvalue13]

What good reason did you have to intentionally not mention Rivian when you claimed that only non-domestic manufacturers were making public announcements?

primary reason: brevity

secondary reason: Rivian, as a company, is a joke

Tertiary reason: true to form, Rivian’s announcements and contract inducement language is, I think, misleading for reasons that need not be hashed out here

but I’ll TLDR say this: if you have an order for an F150L today, but believe you might not take delivery until on or after 1/1/2023, feel free of course, to go demand things from your Ford dealer using the assertion that “Rivian is doing it”

That said, if your dealer “agrees” only by giving you an actual contract like something posted above for the Nissan Ariya (or Rivian’s version), I recommend you have a lawyer (that represents you) chat it over with you.

I don’t go around suggesting people without legal representation enter into substantive legal agreements based on the urging of online truck forum users.

Neither, probably, does Ford (see again the “secondary” item above)

 

[greenne]

What good reason did you have to intentionally not mention Rivian when you claimed that only non-domestic manufacturers were making public announcements?

Rivian is a domestic manufacturer and they're making these statements.

You incorrectly labeled Fisker as a non-domestic manufacturer so you can drop the attitude regarding that. In fact, just drop the attitude entirely since multiple members have mentioned it's dragging the thread down...

I gotta agree Fisker should be labeled non-domestic manufacturer until they actually intend on assembling anything here in the US. They may be an American company, but in this context all people care about is where the manufacturing takes place. For the Ocean, that is in Austira. Therefore, unlike Rivian they will be out the moment the bill is signed.

For Rivian, they are thinking ahead to post Jan 1, 2023, re: MSRP cap. Rivians are assembled in Normal IL so unlike Fisker they need not worry upon bill signature.

As an aside, I agree Fisker is a joke. I had an early reservation but cancelled when they wanted me to shell out $5000 non-refundable for a vehicle that has not been fully revealed yet and very few have seen in prototype form. They have stated the infotainment system will be "ready" in October. Yeah, no thanks.

 

[ExCivilian]

I gotta agree Fisker should be labeled non-domestic manufacturer

This conversation is borderline trolling.

Fisker is a domestic manufacturer. Simply because they manufacture a vehicle outside the US does not make them a non-domestic manufacturer. Ford has over 30 foreign (non-NA) factories and we don't refer to them as a "non-domestic" manufacturer. Nissan manufactures vehicles in the US, yet they aren't a "domestic" manufacturer.

Regardless, this is picking nits. The argument cavlue13 made was:
1. Their interpretation that domestic manufacturers would be unaffected by the law is correct
2. Evidence of that interpretation is that "only" "non-domestic" manufacturers were publicly addressing this issue.
3. Fisker, albeit a domestic manufacturer, is addressing it because they are selling a vehicle manufactured outside NA...and they should be considered "non-domestic" because reasons
4. Rivian, albeit a domestic manufacturer selling a domestically final-built EV, is also addressing the issue because...they're a joke of a company.

This what trolls do on other social media platforms. They post factually wrong points, insult people who correct them, and just generally shit all over the conversation until enough people leave. I operate under the assumption we're all adults here, but if someone can't function in public they need to sit themselves out for a bit and reflect on whatever their problem is so the rest of the community doesn't have to suffer this incessant shitposting.

 

[cvalue13]

This conversation is borderline trolling.

only one troll here, buddy

everyone seems to understand the conversation being had, but you

dont @ me again, and more generally give it a rest

 

[cvalue13]

For Rivian, they are thinking ahead to post Jan 1, 2023, re: MSRP cap. Rivians are assembled in Normal IL so unlike Fisker they need not worry upon bill signature.

Thanks for amplifying this point

but I’ll TLDR say this: if you have an order for an F150L today, but believe you might not take delivery until on or after 1/1/2023, feel free of course, to go demand things from your Ford dealer using the assertion that “Rivian is doing it”

Folks worried they might not take delivery until 2023 are in a different posture than those worried about a vehicle being delivered in 2022.

That said, and since you brought it back around, to be fair to folks following Rivian’s communications, Rivian has been unclearly suggesting but not outright saying that folks should be worried about the MSRP and Income caps immediately. See below in blue, then in red.

Despite this and similar inaccurate or misleading comments by Rivianin its communications to its customers, I agree with you that the fact remains that the industry and Rivian understands the MSRP and Income limits don’t apply until 1/1/23, and that is what they are actually concerned about (to say nothing of the battery minerals and components issue).

For just one indication that the industry understands this (other than the plain language of the bill’s effective date, ), here’s the guidance the NADA sent out to dealers last week (emphasis mine):

“Wednesday, August 10, 2022 - 4:30PM ET
IMMEDIATE ATTENTION: New Electric Vehicle Tax Credit Legislation Changes the
Rules for Electric Vehicles on Dealer Lots

The Senate passed the Democratic "Inflation Reduction Act," a $750 billion tax-and-spend
bill, on August 7 by a vote of 51-50. This bill includes a complete revamping of the Section
30D federal electric vehicle (EV) tax credit. The legislation is scheduled to be considered
by the House on Friday, August 12 and is expected to narrowly pass. President Biden has stated that he will sign the bill into law, which could occur as early as next week.
While this new EV tax credit program generally does not go into effect until January 1, 2023, this bill includes a new requirement that will be effective immediately upon enactment and could affect EVs on your lot. This requirement mandates that to qualify for a federal EV tax credit. the "final assembly" of the vehicle must occur "within North America," i.e., the U.S., Mexico, or Canada.
The current EV tax credit rules have no such North American assembly requirement. This
means that an EV which qualifies for up to a $7,500 federal tax credit today will no longer
qualify as soon as the President signs this legislation, if the final assembly of that vehicle occurred outside of North America.
Importantly, under the bill, if a customer has already "entered into a written binding
contract to purchase" an EV that is assembled outside of North America (or signs such a
contract before the President signs the bill), the customer will still qualify for the current
credit even if the vehicle is not delivered until after the legislation is signed.”


Since Rivian satisfies the North American manufacturing requirement, Rivian’s “binding contract” theatrics is only addressing people worried about taking deliveries in 2023.

Perhaps it is because Rivian is “tracking toward bankruptcy,” and has over 200,000 orders outstanding but has produced fewer than 10,000 units to date, that I’m not surprised to see a mess of a “company” like Rivian publicly encouraging it’s customers to sign a substantive 2-page contract, complete with liability limitations, jury waivers, etc., under time-pressure. The last thing that company needs is this bill limiting MSRP/income eligibility for the vast majority of its vehicles, and their “binding contract” theatrics for a NA-manufactured vehicle to me appears desperate,
sloppy, and from a legal perspective ill-advised.

Which is all indicative of why, earlier in the thread, I found it nonsensical that someone would imply that a company like Ford should be looking to a company like Rivian as a model for how to behave as a company regarding this legislation.

 

[greenne]

This conversation is borderline trolling.

Fisker is a domestic manufacturer. Simply because they manufacture a vehicle outside the US does not make them a non-domestic manufacturer. Ford has over 30 foreign (non-NA) factories and we don't refer to them as a "non-domestic" manufacturer. Nissan manufactures vehicles in the US, yet they aren't a "domestic" manufacturer.

Regardless, this is picking nits. The argument cavlue13 made was:
1. Their interpretation that domestic manufacturers would be unaffected by the law is correct
2. Evidence of that interpretation is that "only" "non-domestic" manufacturers were publicly addressing this issue.
3. Fisker, albeit a domestic manufacturer, is addressing it because they are selling a vehicle manufactured outside NA...and they should be considered "non-domestic" because reasons
4. Rivian, albeit a domestic manufacturer selling a domestically final-built EV, is also addressing the issue because...they're a joke of a company.

This what trolls do on other social media platforms. They post factually wrong points, insult people who correct them, and just generally shit all over the conversation until enough people leave. I operate under the assumption we're all adults here, but if someone can't function in public they need to sit themselves out for a bit and reflect on whatever their problem is so the rest of the community doesn't have to suffer this incessant shitposting.

I'm gonna push back a bit here...In a global economy the terms "domestic" vs "foreign" manufacturers becomes a whole lot more nuanced than it used to be. You seem to be holding onto the traditional approach which is a company that has HQ in the US is automatically a "domestic manufacturer". That's OK..you do you..but in this context that designation doesn't matter to 99% of us trying to navigate the tax credit. As an aside, I think its better to do away with the old paradigm of foreign vs domestic and realize that most manufacturers are simply global.

You bring up Ford, but Ford is way more skewed toward domestic than Fisker because they produce multiple models in the US. The Lightning is produced in the US. Therefore in this context lets consider them domestic(for purposes of the tax credit). They are going to have a way different take on the new EV credit than Fisker.

While Fisker is termed by you to be "domestic manufacturer" in most ways they mirror a foreign manufacturer in that they only have one model now set to be produced in Austria. For the purposes of the new EV tax credit they have different challenges vs Ford and thus would address those challenges differently.

My take on this-- how can you call a company a domestic manufacturer when then don't manufacter any products domestically?

As an aside(being a former Fisker reservation holder) I see some huge red flags here--my gut tells me they are in deep financial trouble-- so there may be another reason why they want to "lock" people into binding contracts vs just trying to look after customers. I think it is as much of them needing the $$ to survive.

I don't know who's trolling who and what the issue is but quite frankly I wish both you guys would knock it off.

99% of us don't care whether you call Fisker a domestic manufacturer or not. What we do care about is whether Fisker(or any other EV) will still be eligible for the tax credit and after what date. That's what important.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Didn't Biden sign the bill already?

Not yet......
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376


These are links to DRAFT versions of Form 8936 and instructions, though they were related to minor changes for filing season 2022 (tax year 2021) these links will reflect future revisions as the situation develops.

https://www.irs.gov/draft-tax-forms

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/i8936--dft.pdf

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/f8936--dft.pdf

 

[TaxmanHog]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...5/by-the-numbers-the-inflation-reduction-act/


CLEAN ENERGY

Lowering Energy Costs

• Families that take advantage of clean energy and electric vehicle tax credits will save more than $1,000 per year.
• $14,000 in direct consumer rebates for families to buy heat pumps or other energy efficient home appliances, saving families at least $350 per year.
• 7.5 million more families will be able install solar on their roofs with a 30% tax credit, saving families $9,000 over the life of the system or at least $300 per year.
• Up to $7,500 in tax credits for new electric vehicles and $4,000 for used electric vehicles, helping families save $950 per year.
• Putting America on track to meet President Biden’s climate goals, which will save every family an average of $500 per year on their energy costs.

Building a Clean Energy Economy

• Power homes, businesses, and communities with much more clean energy by 2030, including:
  • 950 million solar panels
  • 120,000 wind turbines
  • 2,300 grid-scale battery plants
• Advance cost-saving clean energy projects at rural electric cooperatives serving 42 million people.
• Strengthen climate resilience and protect nearly 2 million acres of national forests.
• Creating millions of good-paying jobs making clean energy in America.

Reducing Harmful Pollution

• Reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 1 gigaton in 2030, or a billion metric tons – 10 times more climate impact than any other single piece of legislation ever enacted.
• Deploy clean energy and reduce particle pollution from fossil fuels to avoid up to 3,900 premature deaths and up to 100,000 asthma attacks annually by 2030.

 

[TaxmanHog]

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d

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