Any word about the Range Extender Patent?

[Kiggulak]

The 25kw generator of the i3 - doesn't actually put out 25kw. That is it's maximum output per it's original use as a scooter motor - in the i3, it is more like a 10-17kw generator as it is tuned to run at a slower rpm.

Workhorse had a deal with BMW to use this range extender for their planned truck W15 - not sure BMW would be willing to work with Ford though...

What's the onboard generator in the Chevy Volt? Unlike the BMW i3 which limits top speed when using the generator the Volt allowed normal electric operation when using its onboard gas generator.

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[RavenYZF-R6]

For the price of these range extenders you can just rent a nice new ICE truck for the yearly vacation and probably still come out ahead in a decade.

 

[Lightning_Bob]

What's the onboard generator in the Chevy Volt? Unlike the BMW i3 which limits top speed when using the generator the Volt allowed normal electric operation when using its onboard gas generator.

The Volt has a 63kw/84hp gasoline engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

The Volt is a slightly different animal - At a certain speed (I think it was 60-70mph) - it has an interesting transmission setup where it will put the power from the generator directly to the wheels - so in essence a parallel hybrid setup.

The i3 does not have a speed limiter when using the REx. Though will say the US version of the i3 REx - by default will not automatically turn on until you hit 6% battery....at 6% battery the car limits speed - this issue is resolved by "coding" the i3 so that it has the option to manually turn on the REx when the battery is at 75% or lower.

 

[Blainestang]

The 25kw generator of the i3 - doesn't actually put out 25kw. That is it's maximum output per it's original use as a scooter motor - in the i3, it is more like a 10-17kw generator as it is tuned to run at a slower rpm.

The C 650 GT scooter makes 44kW (60hp), and by my calculations the i3 would need at least ~16kW of output just to counter the wind resistance only at 70mph, which it can do indefinitely while running on the REx.

But the point is, clearly one could get 25kW+ out of a generator that fits in the bed of an F-150... if Ford wanted to make something like that available.

 

[Lightning_Bob]

The C 650 GT scooter makes 44kW (60hp), and by my calculations the i3 would need at least ~16kW of output just to counter the wind resistance only at 70mph, which it can do indefinitely while running on the REx.

But the point is, clearly one could get 25kW+ out of a generator that fits in the bed of an F-150... if Ford wanted to make something like that available.

Our daily drivers are i3 RExs - The generator will put out max output at above 56mph - from our observations the i3 REx will hold charge level at 70mph - but the road will need to be flat, and not utilizing the cabin AC... however start factoring, using the AC on a hot day, keeping up with traffic on the turnpike at 80mph and carrying passengers - the REx will not keep up with the load requirement - but will slow down the depletion significantly... We did a 1600 mile roadtrip with the REx - with these types of conditions, we were able to stretch the battery range of 70 miles to 300 miles before needing to charge up the battery...


..but back to your point - yes, if Ford wanted to make this, they could, though not sure where'd they source the engine...OP question is if anyone knew where they are on considering proceeding with this?

 

[Blainestang]

What's the onboard generator in the Chevy Volt? Unlike the BMW i3 which limits top speed when using the generator the Volt allowed normal electric operation when using its onboard gas generator.

I don't believe there are any meaningful, *inherent* limitations on the i3 just because the REx is running. The issue that people ran into was that they would show up at the bottom of a mountain with low battery and then assume a 34hp engine (minus conversion losses) would be able to climb a mountain at interstate speeds.

This was very occasionally an issue with the Volt, also, for people who didn't use the hold mode to make sure they had some battery capacity buffer before a steep climb. But the more powerful engine in the Volt (plus the ability to mechanically power the wheels) made this relatively much rarer.

And this could absolutely be an issue if someone had a 25kW generator in an F-150. Somebody would show up at the bottom of a mountain and expect to tow something up a mountain just because the generator is running, but they might be limited to ~10mph because they only have 34hp. For that matter, even NOT towing and on flat ground, a 34hp generator isn't going to power an F-150 at interstate speeds. So, it would have to be made VERY clear to anyone using a bed-mounted generator that it cannot actually power a Lightning alone except at very low speeds.

 

[Kiggulak]

I don't believe there are any meaningful, *inherent* limitations on the i3 just because the REx is running. The issue that people ran into was that they would show up at the bottom of a mountain with low battery and then assume a 34hp engine (minus conversion losses) would be able to climb a mountain at interstate speeds.

This was very occasionally an issue with the Volt, also, for people who didn't use the hold mode to make sure they had some battery capacity buffer before a steep climb. But the more powerful engine in the Volt (plus the ability to mechanically power the wheels) made this relatively much rarer.

And this could absolutely be an issue if someone had a 25kW generator in an F-150. Somebody would show up at the bottom of a mountain and expect to tow something up a mountain just because the generator is running, but they might be limited to ~10mph because they only have 34hp. For that matter, even NOT towing and on flat ground, a 34hp generator isn't going to power an F-150 at interstate speeds. So, it would have to be made VERY clear to anyone using a bed-mounted generator that it cannot actually power a Lightning alone except at very low speeds.

My 2013 had no means to mechanically power the wheels it was true serial hybrid with all generator power to the battery/electric drive train. Not sure on the newer configuration perhaps they ruined the configuration to be parallel hybrid like everyone else but this was a key point to the early Volts plus not looking like a roller skate.

If Ford had a bi-directional power port in the bed that might allow range extending generators to make sense. As it stands now there is no means to power AND drive at the same time. Plugging into the charge port disables driving, so your range extender is just a portable charger where CCS chargers can top you up faster than towing/hauling the extra weight of a generator.

See the debate on the solar tonneau cover which is lighter but less power at 1.5Kw to 6Kw based on battery config.

 

[Lightning_Bob]

I don't believe there are any meaningful, *inherent* limitations on the i3 just because the REx is running.

You are correct - the limitations were because the battery was a too low of a charge.

The issue that people ran into was that they would show up at the bottom of a mountain with low battery and then assume a 34hp engine (minus conversion losses) would be able to climb a mountain at interstate speeds.

Yep - this was the source of a lawsuit/case action or two when the i3 REx was initially released.

This was very occasionally an issue with the Volt, also, for people who didn't use the hold mode to make sure they had some battery capacity buffer before a steep climb. But the more powerful engine in the Volt (plus the ability to mechanically power the wheels) made this relatively much rarer.

Thank you for this information, I didn't think this would happen with the Volt, as I always assumed it kept the State of Charge at a 30-60% - if I drive a volt, I wont be stomping on the accelerator going uphill a tall mountain ;-)

And this could absolutely be an issue if someone had a 25kW generator in an F-150. Somebody would show up at the bottom of a mountain and expect to tow something up a mountain just because the generator is running, but they might be limited to ~10mph because they only have 34hp. For that matter, even NOT towing and on flat ground, a 34hp generator isn't going to power an F-150 at interstate speeds. So, it would have to be made VERY clear to anyone using a bed-mounted generator that it cannot actually power a Lightning alone except at very low speeds.

I would think if Ford offered this - it would have disclaimers all over it stating to not rely on this unit if the state of charge is below 20% and you have challenging terrain (going uphill, etc) Thinking more about it, really this range extender package would most likely have proprietary connectors that would enable communications with the truck and put out notifications/status alarms - so they should be covered well enough.

 

[Blainestang]

Our daily drivers are i3 RExs - The generator will put out max output at above 56mph - from our observations the i3 REx will hold charge level at 70mph - but the road will need to be flat, and not utilizing the cabin AC... however start factoring, using the AC on a hot day, keeping up with traffic on the turnpike at 80mph and carrying passengers - the REx will not keep up with the load requirement - but will slow down the depletion significantly... We did a 1600 mile roadtrip with the REx - with these types of conditions, we were able to stretch the battery range of 70 miles to 300 miles before needing to charge up the battery...


..but back to your point - yes, if Ford wanted to make this, they could, though not sure where'd they source the engine...OP question is if anyone knew where they are on considering proceeding with this?

Funny. I'm in FL and we've owned and done trips up to 1,500+ miles in multiple i3s , also.

In my experience, the REx was able drive indefinitely at ~70mph with A/C and 3 passengers once the REx was warmed up to max output, but yeah, that's the edge and there are lots of variables. If it was a hot day or higher elevation than FL or any number of things, it may not have worked and that number may have been 60mph or whatever.

Honestly, I don't think Ford *will* offer a generator, but I think it does have some valid uses and it is theoretically possible to accomplish contrary to some early implications in this thread.

 

[Blainestang]

My 2013 had no means to mechanically power the wheels it was true serial hybrid with all generator power to the battery/electric drive train. Not sure on the newer configuration perhaps they ruined the configuration to be parallel hybrid like everyone else but this was a key point to the early Volts plus not looking like a roller skate.

If Ford had a bi-directional power port in the bed that might allow range extending generators to make sense. As it stands now there is no means to power AND drive at the same time. Plugging into the charge port disables driving, so your range extender is just a portable charger where CCS chargers can top you up faster than towing/hauling the extra weight of a generator.

See the debate on the solar tonneau cover which is lighter but less power at 1.5Kw to 6Kw based on battery config.

The 1st Gen Volts actually did have a way of mechanically powering the wheels with the generator, though GM originally implied or claimed that it didn't.

https://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/11/gm-yes-the-volts-gas-engine-can-power-the-wheels/

But yes, I think the lack of known bi-directional power port, the weight, the relative rarity of use, etc. will mean that Ford won't actually make one of these, but I think it would have some uses and could be done like the Volt and i3.

 

[Blainestang]

You are correct - the limitations were because the battery was a too low of a charge.

Yep - this was the source of a lawsuit/case action or two when the i3 REx was initially released.

Thank you for this information, I didn't think this would happen with the Volt, as I always assumed it kept the State of Charge at a 30-60% - if I drive a volt, I wont be stomping on the accelerator going uphill a tall mountain ;-)

I would think if Ford offered this - it would have disclaimers all over it stating to not rely on this unit if the state of charge is below 20% and you have challenging terrain (going uphill, etc) Thinking more about it, really this range extender package would most likely have proprietary connectors that would enable communications with the truck and put out notifications/status alarms - so they should be covered well enough.

Yeah, the lawsuits were a little ridiculous to me. I do think BMW and dealers could have done a better job clarifying the capabilities of the REx, but also people need to take some responsibility for themselves, especially on such a big purchase. A max of 34hp (or less) minus conversion losses is going to have some limitations.

I've only ever heard of a couple cases of the Volt having that issue, but apparently, it's theoretically possible if you try to blast up a mountain with low battery. Not sure I ever heard of it happening with the 2nd gen. May have only been 1st gen.

Yes, they'd need lots of disclaimers. They should just say right off the bat : The generator cannot power the truck by itself. If you have <20% charge, get to a charger. Keeping people from getting themselves in bad situations and then acting surprised/mad is one of the toughest problems with the generator idea.

 

[LightningShow]

I just want them to add a charge port that can charge the battery while the truck is running so you can charge it with any old portable generator. There are plenty of use cases for that without some custom built "range extender". You can go down to Harbor Freight and buy a 7.6kW continuous generator for $2k. At ~2mi/kWh that will add 15mi/hr to your range and allow you to charge overnight in a remote location. For a one way trip that will get you at least 400mi of nonstop range, probably 500-600 if you drive efficiently (i.e. slow ). If you're going to a remote location 500 miles away for a weekend you can easily get there and back without stopping to charge.


ETA: I don't actually know if the charge port can or can't charge while driving. I'm assuming it can't but it's also probably just a software update to allow it.

 

[vandy1981]

At ~2mi/kWh that will add 15mi/hr to your range

I'd bet that 2mi/kWh is overly optimistic for the F150L. The Rivian R1T is 2.17 mi/kWh per EPA ratings and it's a smaller and *probably* lighter vehicle.

It would be cool to have a second J1772 port in the bed for this purpose but it's probably not worth the engineering effort given minimal range extension and the need for a lockout mechanism with the addition of a second port.

You would be better off just spending 5 minutes at a Lvl3 charger where you'd add 7.5kWh at 100 kW. You could also just drop your speed by a few miles per hour to get the same benefit.

 

[DadBald]

+1 for just renting another vehicle for the 1 trip a year it's needed.

 

[LightningShow]

I'd bet that 2mi/kWh is overly optimistic for the F150L. The Rivian R1T is 2.17 mi/kWh per EPA ratings and it's a smaller and *probably* lighter vehicle.

It would be cool to have a second J1772 port in the bed for this purpose but it's probably not worth the engineering effort given minimal range extension and the need for a lockout mechanism with the addition of a second port.

You would be better off just spending 5 minutes at a Lvl3 charger where you'd add 7.5kWh at 100 kW. You could also just drop your speed by a few miles per hour to get the same benefit.

When you start getting into wilderness areas L3 chargers become very few and far between. For me, I generally go up into the White Mountains of NH to go skiing or camping. There are no DC chargers on the route after I get about 30 miles north of my place.

If the Rivian is 2.2 then I would say 2.0 is pretty realistic for the F-150. The Hummer EV is significantly larger and heavier and will get about 1.8mi/kwh. The F-150 should be in between the two and probably closer to the Rivian considering the 9,000lb curb weight of the Hummer.

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