Home Back-Up and 80A EVSE Missing at Launch

[Nick Gerteis]

Did you take into account that the truck may have a neutral-ground bond on it and if you connect it to a house which also has a neutral bond in the main panel you may end up with a ground fault situation in the truck which will stop the power from flowing. This what happened to TFL when they tried this exact thing with a Powerboost inverter.

Wouldn’t it be great if Ford could let at least this cat out of the bag? Would be helpful for many of their customers.

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[Tony Burgh]

Did you take into account that the truck may have a neutral-ground bond on it and if you connect it to a house which also has a neutral-ground bond in the main panel you may end up with a ground fault situation in the truck which will stop the power from flowing. This is what happened to TFL when they tried this exact thing with a Powerboost inverter.

How would you ground a vehicle on four rubber tires?

 

[Fastnf]

How would you ground a vehicle on four rubber tires?

By ground I am referring to the ground wire, not earth. On a house there is one point in the main panel where the neutral and ground are bonded in the house. (tied together) The ground rod is attached to the grounding wire. Generators or inverters may also tie the ground together with the neutral. This bond is not usually tied to earth by a grounding rod. Though it can be. The purpose of the bound is not for grounding to earth but for use with Ground Fault Circuit interrupters (GFCI outlets) When you connect the generator or inverter to a transfer switch you need to break one of of the two neutral-ground bond. Either the house or the inverter. If there is two point this sets up a small difference voltage between the the two bound points and triggers a ground fault.

 

[jefro]

I get the feeling that the charge port specification already has a conductor ground. However a GFCI doesn't really require a ground it computes the differential current between lines. The specification for EVSE charge equipment currently mandates that it does have an internal GFCI which is kind of odd because some people have claimed that the NEC now requires a second GFCI and of course you never put two GFCIs in series.

 

[adoublee]

I get the feeling that the charge port specification already has a conductor ground. However a GFCI doesn't really require a ground it computes the differential current between lines. The specification for EVSE charge equipment currently mandates that it does have an internal GFCI which is kind of odd because some people have claimed that the NEC now requires a second GFCI and of course you never put two GFCIs in series.

I think they are talking about the 240/120VAV NEMA L14-30R output-only receptacle in the bed being connected to the home wiring system. A bit off topic here because it is limited in function not only by requiring manual reconnection of the home to the truck with a custom cord, but also power limited to 7.2kW out that one cord (another 120VAC 2.4kW could be connected seperately).

Back on the topic of the home back-up as marketed by Ford, I'm newly noting the pricing survey graphic, in the Lariat+ trim where ER is first considered "included", says "80A onboard power supply which can be used as an emergency, household generator". Interesting to me the reference to ONBOARD power supply relative to home backup generator function.

 

[Tony Burgh]

By ground I am referring to the ground wire, not earth. On a house there is one point in the main panel where the neutral and ground are bonded in the house. (tied together) The ground rod is attached to the grounding wire. Generators or inverters may also tie the ground together with the neutral. This bond is not usually tied to earth by a grounding rod. Though it can be. The purpose of the bound is not for grounding to earth but for use with Ground Fault Circuit interrupters (GFCI outlets) When you connect the generator or inverter to a transfer switch you need to break one of of the two neutral-ground bond. Either the house or the inverter. If there is two point this sets up a small difference voltage between the the two bound points and triggers a ground fault.

I have 3 earth ground points tied into my circuit breaker panel. One is the aluminum ground that comes in with the supply lines. The second is the connection to copper water lines with a jumper around the water meter. The third is a copper rod that was installed more than 20 years ago when the circuit breaker panel was upgraded.
They are all electrically (but not physically) tied together in the box.
Am I correct in assuming that I shouldn’t plan to use the 30A 240 connection from the EV to run house lights and other small loads?
Thanks for any information.

 

[Pilot2022]

I have 3 earth ground points tied into my circuit breaker panel. One is the aluminum ground that comes in with the supply lines. The second is the connection to copper water lines with a jumper around the water meter. The third is a copper rod that was installed more than 20 years ago when the circuit breaker panel was upgraded.
They are all electrically (but not physically) tied together in the box.
Am I correct in assuming that I shouldn’t plan to use the 30A 240 connection from the EV to run house lights and other small loads?
Thanks for any information.

are you sure the aluminum wire on the supply side is ground? Do you have a total of 4 wires or 3?

 

[Fastnf]

I have 3 earth ground points tied into my circuit breaker panel. One is the aluminum ground that comes in with the supply lines. The second is the connection to copper water lines with a jumper around the water meter. The third is a copper rod that was installed more than 20 years ago when the circuit breaker panel was upgraded.
They are all electrically (but not physically) tied together in the box.
Am I correct in assuming that I shouldn’t plan to use the 30A 240 connection from the EV to run house lights and other small loads?
Thanks for any information.

These are all grounding points and are correct and meet code. They are however not Neutral Ground bonds. The neutral ground bond is where the white neutral wire is connected to the green ground wire. This junction is usually on the main panel and there is only one connection point (bond) in the system per code.

As to whether you can run the house off of an ev; that depends on the inverter used with the EV. If it does not have a neutral ground bond on it it should work. If it does have a neutral ground bond and it CAN be disconnected it will work with it disconnected. If it has one and it CANNOT be disconnected then it will most likely not work due to a ground fault condition

 

[Tony Burgh]

are you sure the aluminum wire on the supply side is ground? Do you have a total of 4 wires or 3?

3 coming in from pole. 2 insulated wires to main disconnect. Uninsulated bundle to lug on panel box. 245v across insulated wires. 122v from each insulated to lug connection.
Does that sound correct? House is 60 yo.

 

[Pilot2022]

3 coming in from pole. 2 insulated wires to main disconnect. Uninsulated bundle to lug on panel box. 245v across insulated wires. 122v from each insulated to lug connection.
Does that sound correct? House is 60 yo.

That’s what i thought. The third wire is not ground but neutral from the utility. It is bonded to ground at the panel.

 

[adoublee]

So far the premise of this thread is pretty spot on. Based on info revealed today 1/3/2022:

- Ford has indeed off-loaded the automatic back-up system hardware to Sunrun. Wow.
- Sunrun will take 80A EVSE orders for SR battery customers "~March 2022". So indeed no ordering at time of vehicle order for many.
- First wave orders open 1/6/2022. I still don't know if the 80A EVSE will have a connector physically compatible with my Nissan Leaf (non combo charge system). Sunrun is to have a website that goes live 1/5 - who knows if any real detail will be included.

On top of that is the additional bad news:
- The integration package requires a cellular connection, which means Sunrun can make sure you maintain a grid connection. Want to power that remote cabin with the truck and some solar? Tough luck. Want to charge the truck solar-only? Not a chance. Don't want system to become a brick as soon as selected cellular technology is dropped by cell provider? Cellular upgrades not available! This is a BS power grab Ford just handed to Sunrun.
- An additional "activation" has to be purchased if you actually want an SR battery to work with automatic backup system.
- The truck will indeed require an external inverter even though 9.6kW of inverter hardware is already built in to the truck. Oh, and a black start battery has to be purchased and maintained instead of using the truck's battery as well.

I'll hold off on full judgment but this feature is looking less and less elegant the more I learn.

 

[vtec26]

So far the premise of this thread is pretty spot on. Based on info revealed today 1/3/2022:

- Ford has indeed off-loaded the automatic back-up system hardware to Sunrun. Wow.
- Sunrun will take 80A EVSE orders for SR battery customers "~March 2022". So indeed no ordering at time of vehicle order for many.
- First wave orders open 1/6/2022. I still don't know if the 80A EVSE will have a connector physically compatible with my Nissan Leaf (non combo charge system). Sunrun is to have a website that goes live 1/5 - who knows if any real detail will be included.

On top of that is the additional bad news:
- The integration package requires a cellular connection, which means Sunrun can make sure you maintain a grid connection. Want to power that remote cabin with the truck and some solar? Tough luck. Want to charge the truck solar-only? Not a chance. Don't want system to become a brick as soon as selected cellular technology is dropped by cell provider? Cellular upgrades not available! This is a BS power grab Ford just handed to Sunrun.
- An additional "activation" has to be purchased if you actually want an SR battery to work with automatic backup system.
- The truck will indeed require an external inverter even though 9.6kW of inverter hardware is already built in to the truck. Oh, and a black start battery has to be purchased and maintained instead of using the truck's battery as well.

I'll hold off on full judgment but this feature is looking less and less elegant the more I learn.

@adoublee Where did you see they offloaded to Sunrun and that Sunrun is to have a website live at 1/5? Also, where is the info about an additional activation for the SR battery? This feature is essentially the only reason I reserved a Lightning and I'm trying to find more info on this. This is all a bit annoying for not having everything thought out, but honestly, I'm not surprised. It's not like a car company will care much about energy solutions. Large companies just are not ready logistically to cross industries.

I also have other EVs in the household and the connector uncertainty is a headache. Although I never expected to use the 80A EVSE solely, I was planning to keep my Chargepoint and add the Ford 80A.

Thanks for your update.

 

[adoublee]

@adoublee Where did you see they offloaded to Sunrun and that Sunrun is to have a website live at 1/5? Also, where is the info about an additional activation for the SR battery? This feature is essentially the only reason I reserved a Lightning and I'm trying to find more info on this. This is all a bit annoying for not having everything thought out, but honestly, I'm not surprised. It's not like a car company will care much about energy solutions. Large companies just are not ready logistically to cross industries.

I also have other EVs in the household and the connector uncertainty is a headache. Although I never expected to use the 80A EVSE solely, I was planning to keep my Chargepoint and add the Ford 80A.

Thanks for your update.

It is in the Dealer Play online thing: https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/att...order-bank-opening-playbook-1-3-22-pdf.35157/

There is a section about procedure for getting the 80A EVSE from Sunrun, and another for getting home back-up from Sunrun.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

It is in the Dealer Play online thing: https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/att...order-bank-opening-playbook-1-3-22-pdf.35157/

There is a section about procedure for getting the 80A EVSE from Sunrun, and another for getting home back-up from Sunrun.

It does seem to mention that it is a one-time-activation. So it doesn’t sound like a constant cell connection is required.

Though, if it is, that would *SUCK*. It is one of the things I hate about the Tesla Powerwall, and why I can’t get them. If the internet goes down, so does the battery backup. Our internet usually goes out in tandem with the power failures. So it makes the Powerwall useless.

 

[adoublee]

It does seem to mention that it is a one-time-activation. So it doesn’t sound like a constant cell connection is required.

Though, if it is, that would *SUCK*. It is one of the things I hate about the Tesla Powerwall, and why I can’t get them. If the internet goes down, so does the battery backup. Our internet usually goes out in tandem with the power failures. So it makes the Powerwall useless.

I don't believe this activation cost is related to the cellular - it is just to make the SR battery functional with the also separately purchased Ford Charge Station Pro and Home Integration System.

I don't know exactly how the cellular connection will be used - in "theory" it could just be for monitoring your system. However, it is part of the "customer must have" section. It is very possible it does not immediately take down back-up if cellular signal is lost (that is just idiotic if you ask me), but it could still be used to lock down use of the system in one way or another. For example, Enphase recently came out with their IQ8 solar microinverter that can provide back-up power without battery support, be they will also not allow it to be used off-grid and use a required cellular connection to make sure there is a grid source installed through their own MID.

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