Lightning performance (acceleration) with standard vs. extended range battery

[uniblab]

Ford says the new F-150 Lightning will be the quickest truck it has ever built, but where are the stats??? I know they really want to sell the truck based upon its novel features like home backup power and the frunk, but they are leaving us performance junkies in the lurch here. There is very little performance information available... which makes me wonder if the performance really isn't going to be all that great.

I have seen the estimates for 0-60 times for the 2022 F-150 Lightning of about 4.4 seconds for the extended range battery and about 5 seconds for the standard range battery. I have been unable to find even basic information such as the curb weights for the trucks equipped with the two different battery packs. The only statistic I have seen is that the truck will weigh "up to 6500 lbs", I'm assuming this would be for the extended range battery. If the 1800 lb figure that has been quoted for the extended range battery is correct, that would put the standard battery pack at around 1300 lbs with a total truck weight of about 6,000 lbs with the standard battery.

Now consider the two trucks with the same max torque rating of 775 lb/ft - I assume this is at 0 rpm - it would seem to me that the truck with the standard range battery should leave the line faster than the extended range due to less weight, but the extended range version's extra 137hp would cause that truck to accelerate harder once the RPMs come up a little bit, with the standard range truck having HP limited by the max watts that can be drawn from the smaller battery. I would assume the standard range truck would get passed somewhere around the 25 mph mark and be left behind at any speeds above that. This all assumes that the gearing of the two trucks is identical.

I'm trying to get a feel for how the Lightning would perform vs. my current 2018 5.0 F-150 crew cab - it weighs about 5,000 lbs and given it's performance of 13.3 @ 104mph it has about 450hp. Given that the standard range Lightning has "only" 437hp and weighs 1,000 lbs more, It seems like on paper it would be slower than my truck, but my guess is that it would beat my truck off of the line anyway due to the instant torque of the electric motors. But even if that's true, I'm worried that stomping on the accelerator at 70mph or even 40mph isn't going to make me smile any more than my current truck does. With the extended range battery, I might be satisfied with the performance all around but the weight and price penalty of the bigger battery will take some getting used to. FWIW I have zero concerns about range even with the standard battery given how I will use the truck.

I think I am leaning towards an XLT with the extended range battery, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this whole ordering process develops. I'd really like a test drive before I order! When I calculate the quarter mile ET and MPH using 6500 lbs and 563 hp, I get 13.8 seconds at 103mph which is not at all exceptional these days. If the Lightning isn't quicker than my current truck, I'm probably going to look at the R1T or maybe just keep driving the 5.0 for a few more years. If my math is wrong, someone please correct me.

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[sotek2345]

You math seems about right, EVs are monsters off the line, but taper off as speed increases. From a dig, either will slaughter your 5.0, from 70mph, the 5.0 has an advantage against either truck (gears working in it's favor). At 40 it is anyone's guess right now. My guess would be the SR is a little slower and the ER is a little faster.

One thing to note that will impact the driving experience and feel of the truck: the EV will react much faster to accelerator input, no need to down shift, open throttle bodies, wait for fuel to flow, etc. This will cause it to jump ahead of just about any ICE vehicle immediately.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

According to all the Youtube video reviews I have seen, the Lightning is still capable of throwing you back in your seat even when you are up around 90 MPH. This is due to the instant-torque of the electic motors. As an EV driver I can attest to this, it is a radically different driving experience vs. Gas and gears.

From what I have seen, the truck will weigh about the same as a regular F150, plus a 1800 pound battery pack. So, 6500 lbs is a good estimate.

One huge benefit of all this extra weight is that it is literally between the frame rails. Meaning, it has the lowest center of gravity of any F150, plus the quickest acceleration. Add to this independent rear suspension, and it handles more like a luxury sedan than a truck.

I think what Ford is going for here is trying to out-compete the RAM. The RAM has been winning all kinds of awards, and Ford wants to move ahead. The cabin in the Lightning is very much like that of the RAM, and the all electric is just going to bury the gas/diesel power trains for everything other than range.

Completion in the truck space is a great thing for consumers.

 

[uniblab]

According to all the Youtube video reviews I have seen, the Lightning is still capable of throwing you back in your seat even when you are up around 90 MPH. This is due to the instant-torque of the electic motors. As an EV driver I can attest to this, it is a radically different driving experience vs. Gas and gears.

From what I have seen, the truck will weigh about the same as a regular F150, plus a 1800 pound battery pack. So, 6500 lbs is a good estimate.

One huge benefit of all this extra weight is that it is literally between the frame rails. Meaning, it has the lowest center of gravity of any F150, plus the quickest acceleration. Add to this independent rear suspension, and it handles more like a luxury sedan than a truck.

I think what Ford is going for here is trying to out-compete the RAM. The RAM has been winning all kinds of awards, and Ford wants to move ahead. The cabin in the Lightning is very much like that of the RAM, and the all electric is just going to bury the gas/diesel power trains for everything other than range.

Completion in the truck space is a great thing for consumers.

What youtube videos? All the ones I have watched are uninstrumented drives on a test track, none of which have been that impressive nor were any at highway speeds.

I accept everything you said above except for the throwing back in your seat at 90 mph part. 563hp is simply not enough to push you back in your seat at 90mph when you weigh 6500lbs... unless there is some funny math going on somewhere such as 563hp not being the actual peak output (maybe it's higher?). I'm not necessarily doubting the truck, just wondering how the numbers can possibly work without violating the laws of physics.

Anecdotally, 563hp is about double the horsepower my Mustang puts out, and 6500lbs is about double what my Mustang weighs. Not surprisingly, the calculators say they will accelerate at approximately the same rate. The calculator is dead-nuts accurate for the Mustang vs. my real-world experience.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

Anecdotally, 563hp is about double the horsepower my Mustang puts out, and 6500lbs is about double what my Mustang weighs. Not surprisingly, the calculators say they will accelerate at approximately the same rate. The calculator is dead-nuts accurate for the Mustang vs. my real-world experience.

I do not think your calculator will be correct. The truck will accelerate off the line quicker.

As you suspected, the acceleration will be less impressive at highway speeds, but you are underestimating the performance of many EVs. It doesn't matter what the numbers say. As far as I'm concerned, looking at numbers is a useless way to compare instant acceleration and how much power you "feel" between gas and EVs when accelerating. Comparing numbers between 2 EVs or 2 gas vehicles is great and all, but trying to make conclusions from stats comparing an ICE vehicle to an EV is hard.

I have a Mach e premium with extended range battery. It is also very heavy, but not as heavy as the lightning. It has less power and torque than the lightning.

If you don't think it will throw you back in your seat at highway speeds when you stomp on the accelerator, well... Let me know what think after you get your truck. Your response will likely change. If my Mach e can do it, I'm sure the Lightning can too. I've never felt any ICE mass production vehicle give that same instant torque sensation at highway speeds. I'm sure some can do it... But probably not for a similar price.

Prepare to be presently surprised.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

What youtube videos? All the ones I have watched are uninstrumented drives on a test track, none of which have been that impressive nor were any at highway speeds.

I accept everything you said above except for the throwing back in your seat at 90 mph part. 563hp is simply not enough to push you back in your seat at 90mph when you weigh 6500lbs... unless there is some funny math going on somewhere such as 563hp not being the actual peak output (maybe it's higher?). I'm not necessarily doubting the truck, just wondering how the numbers can possibly work without violating the laws of physics.

Anecdotally, 563hp is about double the horsepower my Mustang puts out, and 6500lbs is about double what my Mustang weighs. Not surprisingly, the calculators say they will accelerate at approximately the same rate. The calculator is dead-nuts accurate for the Mustang vs. my real-world experience.

I have a pretty gutless Kia Soul Ev+, but when I stomp on the pedal at any speed below 70 MPH you can feel the kick in the pants from instant torque, which is simple not possible in a gas or Diesel engine because there is a lag from when you apply force to the pedal before the engine spools up. In an electric vehicle, that lag is in nanoseconds, so you feel it instantly. The blogger in the below video got to ride along at the Michigan closed track, but was not allowed to film:

That is discussed here:

There is another video here, with a good set of footage looking back at the lightning as it navigates a track, so you can see the handling and hear the tires chirping, so you know they are pushing it:



Finally, there is one equation missing from your calculations. Impulse. The time it takes for the power to be delivered. The impulse on an electric vehicle is extremely small. This is why you suddenly feel that push back in your seat, because the time frame of the torque change is near instant, versus spooling up on an ICE engine. It is something immediately noticeable in an EV when you drive it, and I drive a completely gutless Kia Soul EV+ with a bad battery, and I still notice it.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Funny thing about the Kia Soul...the output is based on power, not max current. When we tested the Kia Soul, we had higher current at lower SOCs. I told my techs they must have done something wrong and sent them out again, but got the same results. This is MUCH different than most EVs, where they have higher current at higher SOCs. The reason the Soul is different? Target market is urban families that want the driving experience the same regardless of SOC.

This might have changed with the newer model. Another funny thing... the battery stayed the same but the range almost doubled in the new model!

I am honestly not sure. I do know that they are doing different things with the batteries - they are now going 800 Volts in their cars for faster charging. When we bought it, we were deciding between the Leaf and the Soul. The battery in my 2016 Kia is a 30.5 KWh battery, with 27 KWh usable. Though at the moment, it probably only has 7 KWh usable. It was rated at 90 miles of range when we got it, currently it only manages 24.

The current Kia Soul EV’s have a 64 KWh battery, and better aerodynamics, with a rated range of 263 miles. The battery tech has improved immensely in that time period as well.

Crazy to think the lightning has 130 usable KWh!

We actually picked the Soul over the Leaf because the Leaf doesn’t handle crashes as well - and we are in a higher risk area where we are.

I expect the Lightning to be even safer than the Kia.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

What I'm saying about the battery is I know the rating of the cell, how many cells, and what configuration they are in, and then compare that to the OEM rated the vehicle at...they derated it by almost half on the original Kia Soul EV. There were a couple of other features I uncovered in the pack that led me to believe they were not too sure about the cells.

I also thought the limiting by power levels were brilliant based on target market...their customers weren't going to try and smoke someone off from the red light.

Ah, gotcha.

You are probably right. I know that they came out with a crazy warranty for the battery, which was another plus in its favour when we got it. Big plus actually, as I am awaiting my new battery thats supposed to arrive in January as a warranty replacement on my current battery. I am hoping it gets the larger 31 KWh battery, but it probably won’t.

 

[Pilot2022]

I am honestly not sure. I do know that they are doing different things with the batteries - they are now going 800 Volts in their cars for faster charging. When we bought it, we were deciding between the Leaf and the Soul. The battery in my 2016 Kia is a 30.5 KWh battery, with 27 KWh usable. Though at the moment, it probably only has 7 KWh usable. It was rated at 90 miles of range when we got it, currently it only manages 24.

The current Kia Soul EV’s have a 64 KWh battery, and better aerodynamics, with a rated range of 263 miles. The battery tech has improved immensely in that time period as well.

Crazy to think the lightning has 130 usable KWh!

We actually picked the Soul over the Leaf because the Leaf doesn’t handle crashes as well - and we are in a higher risk area where we are.

I expect the Lightning to be even safer than the Kia.

Dang! How many total miles?

With 24 miles range, I assume it is mostly for trips to the grocery store. What are the options/costs for the battery replacement?

would hate to see a $50k f-150 go from 230 miles to a 50 mile range in 5 years.

 

[astricklin]

Dang! How many total miles?

With 24 miles range, I assume it is mostly for trips to the grocery store. What are the options/costs for the battery replacement?

would hate to see a $50k f-150 go from 230 miles to a 50 mile range in 5 years.

If it does that in 5 years, Ford will replace the battery under warranty. Now if it does it in 10. You'll be on the hook. However in 10 years you'll either get a battery that's the same as the original for substantially less money, or get better battery technology that will deliver much more range.
However, looking at the data from Tesla, I don't think there's too much to worry about.
Plus the way most people here talk a good number of these trucks are going to be on to a second or third owner 10 years down the road.
Additionally, 10 years down the road you'll probably be at 150-200k miles and with an ice vehicle of that mileage you are risking a transmission or motor failure that most of the time is going to be the end of life for that vehicle.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Dang! How many total miles?

With 24 miles range, I assume it is mostly for trips to the grocery store. What are the options/costs for the battery replacement?

would hate to see a $50k f-150 go from 230 miles to a 50 mile range in 5 years.

Battery Replacement is free. Part of the reason for my choice was the great warranty from Kia, and I already knew that these batteries could have issues. In fact, I was hoping it would have an issue because some of the replacements seem to have a higher KWh rating, so you end up with a bigger battery.

Kia has a 10 year or 100,000 mile warranty on these batteries, and I am only at 55,000 miles. Though, battery tech has got a lot better in recent years. For example, Robert Llewellyn, over on the Youtube Channel Fully Charged just re-took possession of his 2011 Nissan Leaf, where he got a new battery installed for it for 4000 GBP ($5300 USD). Same form factor, but smarter electronics, and more than double the range of his original:



The first and second gen batteries are not the best. But I am not worried, because I am now experienced with driving an EV I can say that:

You dive an awful lot less than you think you do in most cases.
When you “gas up” each and every time you pull into the garage range issues vanish.
Driving an EV is awesome, I don’t want to go back to Gas or my Turbodiesel.
They are so inexpensive to drive!
The service life is hilarious - Inspect main gear oil at 100,000 miles, test, replace with 1 litre new if required.

Ford has an 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on these batteries. The batteries themselves can be removed with only 8 bolts on the frame to detach them.

And finally, the “bad” batteries are not worthless. Each and every one is fully recycled because the elements they are made with are highly valuable to make brand new batteries with.

So, as a semi-early adopter I have no concerns around going with a Ford Lightning.

 

[broncoaz]

I drove a Chevy Bolt last year, it was a kick in the ass to drive. It wasn’t “fast” but it was “quick” for an economy car. I have no doubts that even the standard battery Lightning I ordered today will be plenty fast.

I think I am leaning towards an XLT with the extended range battery, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this whole ordering process develops.

I can’t understand ordering the XLT with extended range for $76K, you might as well spend another $4K and get the Lariat for $80K. I went Pro with options for $46,577. I couldn’t see the $12K upgrade to the XLT as being worth the money, certainly not adding $30K for the extended range. I might add Katzkins leather and seat heaters to the Pro, but otherwise it seems to have everything I really want with plenty of tech.

 

[hturnerfamily]

my 'old' 2015 Nissan Leaf will beat ANYBODY off the line, at least any other gas or diesel vehicle - but, they'll pass me down the road, of course. Torque is immediate, instant, and there are no 'RPM's to speak of ...
there will always be a 'competition' amoung certain 'manly' men about who's vehicle can 'go the fastest', but for the rest of us, it's about power to the wheels to get where we are going, not how fast we get there, though it CAN be Very FAST if you want it to - the Lightning name was not by chance.

 

[sotek2345]

my 'old' 2015 Nissan Leaf will beat ANYBODY off the line, at least any other gas or diesel vehicle - but, they'll pass me down the road, of course. Torque is immediate, instant, and there are no 'RPM's to speak of ...
there will always be a 'competition' amoung certain 'manly' men about who's vehicle can 'go the fastest', but for the rest of us, it's about power to the wheels to get where we are going, not how fast we get there, though it CAN be Very FAST if you want it to - the Lightning name was not by chance.

Only if "off the line" is measured in hundredths or thousandths of a second and "down the road" is measure din inches.....

Let me introduce you to to top fuel dragster:

 

[Tony Burgh]

my 'old' 2015 Nissan Leaf will beat ANYBODY off the line, at least any other gas or diesel vehicle - but, they'll pass me down the road, of course. Torque is immediate, instant, and there are no 'RPM's to speak of ...
there will always be a 'competition' amoung certain 'manly' men about who's vehicle can 'go the fastest', but for the rest of us, it's about power to the wheels to get where we are going, not how fast we get there, though it CAN be Very FAST if you want it to - the Lightning name was not by chance.

I’ve had several supercharged vehicles for the low end grunt. Some were stock and others were modded (goodbye warranty). Twin turbos help but get expensive. I hope EV will provide what I need - quicker but not faster.

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