Fleet sales manager at dealer says they expect 40% range reduction at 70 mph + , Is that possible?

[Mr. Flibble]

Have to ask out of pure curiosity.... How far will it tow a 7700- 10000 lbs boat (or any trailer)?
From the above details it would seem to be a significant decline.

Thats really hard to say, but based on tests from other EVs that have performed towing, you get roughly 1/3 of your rated range. That is, if your normal range is 300 miles, you get only 100 while towing.

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[Pedaldude]

Drag caused by wind resistance follows a square law all the way up until the sound barrier, so going 60 is going to take 4X as much energy as going 30 no matter how aerodynamic the vehicle is.

The only reason why this phenomenon isn't as noticeable in ICE vehicles at highway speed is because of their extreme driveline inefficiencies.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

The slower speeds help in the city, but so does the regen in stop/go city traffic.

Better range will be driving in the city, bumper to bumper traffic with regen

There are a few posts now with people suggesting by stopping and going regenerative braking leads to increased range compared to just constant speed driving. This is completely false. That's not how physics and energy works. Even with regenerative braking, braking is still going to use more energy than constant speed driving.

Regen braking decreases the amount of energy lost braking. If you want maximum efficiency, just drive at a constant speed. If you don't believe me, take it up with Isaac Newton or whoever made the rules.

Here are some other sources if you don't want to take my word for it:

"It is important to realize that on its own, regenerative braking isn’t a magical range booster for electric vehicles. It doesn’t make electric vehicles more efficient per se, it just makes them less inefficient. Basically, the most efficient way to drive any vehicle would be to accelerate to a constant speed and then never touch the brake pedal. Since braking is going to remove energy and require you to input extra energy to get back up to speed, you’d get your best range by simply never slowing down in the first place."

Source: https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-braking-how-it-works/amp/

"But be warned - regenerative braking does not magically boost your EV's range. Instead, it is there to make your car more efficient. In other words, the most efficient way to drive any car, not just EVs, would be to drive to a constant speed and then never touch the brake pedal. Braking only removes energy, and drivers have to input extra energy to get back up to speed, so it is recommended to never slow down in the first place if a driver wants to achieve the best range for their car."

Source: https://www.hotcars.com/everything-you-should-know-about-regenerative-braking/amp/

"Aggressive drivers, for example, might see more benefit from the system. This doesn’t mean going full-throttle and braking like you’re competing in a rally won’t decrease your range. Cruising at a set speed is still the most effective way to save on batteries. It’s just that sporty driving will cost you less in an EV than it would in a gasoline engine car."

Source: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/ev-regenerative-braking-for-dummies-149745.html

 

[Another Ford]

Thats really hard to say, but based on tests from other EVs that have performed towing, you get roughly 1/3 of your rated range. That is, if your normal range is 300 miles, you get only 100 while towing.

Very interesting.
Thanks

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Have to ask out of pure curiosity.... How far will it tow a 7700- 10000 lbs boat (or any trailer)?
From the above details it would seem to be a significant decline.

That’s a lot of weight. It’ll cut your range in half.

 

[DoomTrain]

Just dont tow anything and you might be OK. Rivian's towing loss is 60%

 

[Nick Gerteis]

There are a few posts now with people suggesting by stopping and going regenerative braking leads to increased range compared to just constant speed driving. This is completely false. That's not how physics and energy works. Even with regenerative braking, braking is still going to use more energy than constant speed driving.

Regen braking decreases the amount of energy lost braking. If you want maximum efficiency, just drive at a constant speed. If you don't believe me, take it up with Isaac Newton or whoever made the rules.

Here are some other sources if you don't want to take my word for it:

"It is important to realize that on its own, regenerative braking isn’t a magical range booster for electric vehicles. It doesn’t make electric vehicles more efficient per se, it just makes them less inefficient. Basically, the most efficient way to drive any vehicle would be to accelerate to a constant speed and then never touch the brake pedal. Since braking is going to remove energy and require you to input extra energy to get back up to speed, you’d get your best range by simply never slowing down in the first place."

Source: https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-braking-how-it-works/amp/

"But be warned - regenerative braking does not magically boost your EV's range. Instead, it is there to make your car more efficient. In other words, the most efficient way to drive any car, not just EVs, would be to drive to a constant speed and then never touch the brake pedal. Braking only removes energy, and drivers have to input extra energy to get back up to speed, so it is recommended to never slow down in the first place if a driver wants to achieve the best range for their car."

Source: https://www.hotcars.com/everything-you-should-know-about-regenerative-braking/amp/

"Aggressive drivers, for example, might see more benefit from the system. This doesn’t mean going full-throttle and braking like you’re competing in a rally won’t decrease your range. Cruising at a set speed is still the most effective way to save on batteries. It’s just that sporty driving will cost you less in an EV than it would in a gasoline engine car."

Source: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/ev-regenerative-braking-for-dummies-149745.html

You’re absolutely correct. I think this misperception comes from people noticing improved range in city vs Hwy driving and crediting the Regen, when it’s actually caused by the much lower speeds averaged during city driving. 20s instead of 70s. So, it’s still a misperception, but an understandable one.

 

[jb56]

Drag caused by wind resistance follows a square law all the way up until the sound barrier, so going 60 is going to take 4X as much energy as going 30 no matter how aerodynamic the vehicle is.

I'm not a physicist or an engineer, so I must be misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that a Tesla model 3 is 4x as efficient at 30 mph as 60 mph?

So using the 4x number, let's just say a Tesla Model 3 uses .07 Kwh per mile at 30 MPH.
And, let's say a Lightning will use .15 kwh per mile at 30 MPH.

If it takes 4 times as much energy at 60 MPH, then the model 3 would use .28 KWH at 60 mph giving it a range of 294 miles at that speed (as opposed to 1178 in range at 30 mph (82.5 / .07) and the Lightning will use .6 Kwh per mile at 60, giving the extended range battery a range of 218 miles at that speed (131 / .60) as opposed to 873 miles at 30 mph (131 / .15)

 

[Kev12345]

Has anyone heard about the speed Ford used to calculate range estimates? I heard from a fleet/commercial sales manager ad a dealership that they expected range to be about 40% less at 70 mph due to the F150's lack of efficient aerodynamics.

how does the Rivian do at these speeds? probably the best comparison we have right now.

 

[gorwell]

Actually the EPA testing requirements for MPG and MPGe include high speed testing up to 80MPH.

Yes, but the average speed is still <50MPH:

This is the test cycles: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

The "city" test average: 21mph.
The "Highway" test is average: 48mph
The "high speed" test average: 48mph, only sitting at >70mph for ~1 minute of a 10 minute test.

These test "closely" resemble day to day driving. But, for many people when they think of range, they think of going on a road trip and spending the majority of their time @ speed 70mph+.

These tests do not replicate that as well. That is why third parties who do straight 70mph range tests are a more relevant metric for many (like Insideevs).

 

[Mr. Flibble]

I'm not a physicist or an engineer, so I must be misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that a Tesla model 3 is 4x as efficient at 30 mph as 60 mph?

More or less, yes:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405906/tesla-model-3-hypermilling-driving-record

 

[jefro]

I'd say there's a huge difference between EPA guesstimate and real world.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html#chart
The two EVs I've had ran close to EPA at 63 mph. 70 and 80 start taking a bite.

 

[hhulseman]

It isn't going to be 40% less range at 70mph. Probably more like 15% for 255 miles range.

Thats why you need the big battery.

You might see 40% range drop in cold weather, rain and driving 70mph with the heater blasting.

 

[Sundancer330]

We looked at the Lightning as a replacement for some of our fleet vehicles in the next few years. But we came to the conclusion after talking to others its a bad fit. We have trucks from the F150 to F550 to tow and move various items. Between our job locations, trailer weights, cold winters we would end up with many trucks dead on the side of the road. Maybe down the road when range is much better, more charging stations we may look at it again but for now its ICE all the way.

 

[Garbone]

Well I would be shocked if you could get over 3m/Kw over 70mph.

Looking at 2.4miles/kw Electrify Americas current rate is $.41/kw. So 100 miles of road trip miles would be roughly $17 at that rate.

Now if your fleet you will most likely be charging on off hours at the garage and that would be about $.12/kw (Florida) and hopefully you can keep it above 3m/kw around town and the cost would be $4 per 100 miles.

With the heat on at 78mph my MachE drops to 2.4 or 2.5 per KW. Lucky we live in Florida and with no heat can keep it above 3m/kw.

I do not think I will be road tripping a Lightning. Really thinking of a Hybrid Maverick for road trips because at current prices/rates it would be 30% better per 100 miles than my MachE using public charging and a Mav XLT is $15000 less out the door than a Lightning Pro. Of course changing at home makes either BEV better per mile so.....

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