Bidirectional charging as a Tesla killer?

[adoublee]

Why does everyone believe that every new EV is a or has to be a Tesla killer? Bi-directional charging is definitely interesting and I believe the adoption will grow over time but doubt it factors heavily into EV purchase decision. Moreover, I am sure Tesla will do it as an adjunct to their power wall technology.

I think the most important things in EV are range, batter tech and charging. Right now Tesla is the leader in most of those and has the largest and most reliable charging network. Over time that will change as well.

Because Tesla has a cult associated with it and enjoying an EV doesn't mean one must own a Tesla, despite what the cult has led the general public to believe.

Probably should redrame as looking for Tesla-cult killer.

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[Mr. Flibble]

Because Tesla has a cult associated with it and enjoying an EV doesn't mean one must own a Tesla, despite what the cult has led the general public to believe.

Probably should redrame as looking for Tesla-cult killer.

The thing that will finally "kill" Tesla is their stock price adjusting. A lot of the Tesla/Musk fanboys also hold stock in the company. So it is a self re-enforcing paradigm.

 

[Rob G]

Because Tesla has a cult associated with it and enjoying an EV doesn't mean one must own a Tesla, despite what the cult has led the general public to believe.

Probably should redrame as looking for Tesla-cult killer.

I think what plays into that cult-ish view is everyone thinks they need to have Tesla killer. Ford, GM, etc co-existed for 100+ years. The same will be said in the EV market when the big companies catch up. I like EVs and I am certainly happy that their is choice. I currently have 3 EVs and the Lightening will be my 4th: 2021 Tesla Model Y Perf, 2021 Porsche Taycan 4S, 2022 Mach-E GTPE.

The one that's the best EV IMHO is the Tesla, it's by far not the best "automobile" but it does the EV things correctly. That being battery range, charging infrastructure, charging curve, charging speed all factoring cost. The Porsche is second, range, charging speeds, fit finish make it almost a better EV than the Tesla but is a way better automobile. The Porsche is nearly as a good an EV but it costs more than 2x the Tesla. We really, really like the MME but it has some limitations for 71 grand that shouldn't exist. However, I think quality of it, the ride, looks and utility are fantastic. It's a better automobile than the MY but it isn't as good an EV.

The Lightning, IMHO, is by far and away one of the most important new vehicles to be introduced in a generation. It shows what can be done with an EV as far as size, range utility and comfort. Think about a 230 mile range F150 work truck for 39 grand before tax credit? It's amazing. Think about the most important badge in American automotive manufacturing, F series pickups, becoming EV? Wow.

However, let's be honest Ford needs to get the charging improved on these, it's not bad but it's no where class leading like Porsche, GM, Hyundai. However, I am quite happy with what Ford is doing and the products overall.

 

[world2steven]

Why does everyone believe that every new EV is a or has to be a Tesla killer? Bi-directional charging is definitely interesting and I believe the adoption will grow over time but doubt it factors heavily into EV purchase decision. Moreover, I am sure Tesla will do it as an adjunct to their power wall technology.

I think the most important things in EV are range, batter tech and charging. Right now Tesla is the leader in most of those and has the largest and most reliable charging network. Over time that will change as well.

My gripe is with Elon Musk, not Tesla per se. But so long as Musk remains in control of Tesla, Musk and Tesla are effectively synonymous. We differ about "the most important things in EV". In case you haven't heard, there are serious problems coming up with the resources for enough batteries to get EVERYONE in EVs. There are serious problems taking advantage of renewable energy sources because there isn't enough storage. In the face of all this, allowing Tesla to churn out the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of EVs without bidirectional charging, allowing it to tie up battery resources in PowerWalls which if utility company promises of reliability are to be believed (they are not) and even pretending Teslas are or will ever be 'the people's car' like VW is - I am at a loss for printable words.

As for 'over time', we have about 10 years - if it isn't already too late to avert catastrophic climate damage. Neither Musk nor the country is serious about this. Musk is selling status, not environmental consciousness. And he is abetted by a government of the rich which limits subsidies to those who have enough one-year tax liabilities to afford his expensive toys.

 

[Rob G]

My gripe is with Elon Musk, not Tesla per se. But so long as Musk remains in control of Tesla, Musk and Tesla are effectively synonymous. We differ about "the most important things in EV". In case you haven't heard, there are serious problems coming up with the resources for enough batteries to get EVERYONE in EVs. There are serious problems taking advantage of renewable energy sources because there isn't enough storage. In the face of all this, allowing Tesla to churn out the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of EVs without bidirectional charging, allowing it to tie up battery resources in PowerWalls which if utility company promises of reliability are to be believed (they are not) and even pretending Teslas are or will ever be 'the people's car' like VW is - I am at a loss for printable words.

As for 'over time', we have about 10 years - if it isn't already too late to avert catastrophic climate damage. Neither Musk nor the country is serious about this. Musk is selling status, not environmental consciousness. And he is abetted by a government of the rich which limits subsidies to those who have enough one-year tax liabilities to afford his expensive toys.

I don't see the issue with PWs but that's not the purpose of this discussion. Mass batter storage I think is an important issue that needs to be tackled as well as battery chemistry. Tesla is doing some very interesting things in that arena as well as Panasonic and others. I think we they get to reliable solid state we will have a game changer. That's another issue though.

I've often discussed with folks the situation when the charging infrastructure truly becomes a network and the cars are the main source of battery storage, not a complete replacement for other storage formats. This would allow for the transfer of electricity amongst the owners of the cars to alleviate heavy grid usage, etc. I have 90% SOC, whatever size, that I'm not gonna use any time soon and I transfer half that energy to you for a credit or payment. I think that using it for just backup power isn't quite exploiting it to it's fullest potential.

Why aim the lack of bidirectional charging only at Tesla? Currently only the F150 is doing that. The Hyundai, Kia offerings will allow you to run electronics and charge another car by sharing the battery. I think thet eventually all EVs will be power plants but that is also very dependent on battery size. 131 kWh battery is a lot more than the 75 kWh in a model Y or the 70 kWh in the MME (which doesn't bidirectionally charge either).

If you're looking to avoid climate change, and I refuse to get into a political discussion, you better do something about India and China--not that our European friends are doing anything but paying lip service to it. France has increased coal burning and so has Poland.

You said:
And he is abetted by a government of the rich which limits subsidies to those who have enough one-year tax liabilities to afford his expensive toys.

I have no idea what this means. Tesla's are not eligible for tax credits. If you're talking about SpaceX the money spent their is a 100x more efficient than it was when NASA was building rockets.

I get it you don't like Musk but had he not pushed the EV thing you might no be getting an electric F150.

 

[world2steven]

I don't see the issue with PWs but that's not the purpose of this discussion.
What's PW's?

Mass batter storage I think is an important issue that needs to be tackled as well as battery chemistry. Tesla is doing some very interesting things in that arena as well as Panasonic and others. I think we they get to reliable solid state we will have a game changer. That's another issue though.
Why the focus on batteries and battery chemistry? There are a whole bunch of gravity-based technologies out there (and probably a lot of others besides). But because power companies and investors can't own them - i.e. make all the profits from them - they don't appear to be being pursued.

I've often discussed with folks the situation when the charging infrastructure truly becomes a network and the cars are the main source of battery storage, not a complete replacement for other storage formats. This would allow for the transfer of electricity amongst the owners of the cars to alleviate heavy grid usage, etc. I have 90% SOC, whatever size, that I'm not gonna use any time soon and I transfer half that energy to you for a credit or payment. I think that using it for just backup power isn't quite exploiting it to it's fullest potential.

I've read that done right this can actually be good for EV batteries. The problem is money-grubbing utilities and their bought and paid for politicians who will never allow the standards required to make this happen.

Why aim the lack of bidirectional charging only at Tesla?
Because Tesla is the leader. It has far more EVs out there than anyone else, EV's that could have been helping in ways you describe. (Any possibility they could be retrofitted?) Meanwhile it is churning out even more battery resources leaving vendors who want to implement it struggling for those resources.

Currently only the F150 is doing that. The Hyundai, Kia offerings will allow you to run electronics and charge another car by sharing the battery.
They are not nearly as good as the Lightning. But you could power your house to a limited extent by connecting one to a hybrid inverter and maybe adding a step-up voltage transformer.

I think thet eventually all EVs will be power plants but that is also very dependent on battery size. 131 kWh battery is a lot more than the 75 kWh in a model Y or the 70 kWh in the MME (which doesn't bidirectionally charge either).


If you're looking to avoid climate change, and I refuse to get into a political discussion, you better do something about India and China--not that our European friends are doing anything but paying lip service to it. France has increased coal burning and so has Poland.
The rule of thumb here for America's corporate leaders and international finance is 'out of sight, out of mind'. They solved the problems of climate change and any legislation attempting to protect workers and the environment by just shipping them to China & India and letting them deal with it - and take the heat when they don't or can't.

You said:
And he is abetted by a government of the rich which limits subsidies to those who have enough one-year tax liabilities to afford his expensive toys.

I have no idea what this means. Tesla's are not eligible for tax credits. If you're talking about SpaceX the money spent their is a 100x more efficient than it was when NASA was building rockets.
I'm talking about the $7500 200,000 Tesla owners have already received. I'm talking about the money buyers of start-ups and late-comers hope to receive. I'm talking about a tax credit that is only good if you have $7500 of tax liabilities in the current year.

I get it you don't like Musk but had he not pushed the EV thing you might no be getting an electric F150.
If Musk had actually produced a 'people's EV' like he said he was going to when he was soaking the rich for $110.000 for their cars, I might indeed have to give him a nod. But for him, it appears to all have been about money. He is now standing in the way of using EVs to address an existential crisis.

 

[PiMatrix]

That’s not how residential panels are constructed. The left and right busses have fingers that the breakers attach to. Thus each alternating breaker position is on the opposite “phase”. If each side were all on the same buss, a 2 pole breaker would not provide 240V.

Thanks for correcting! I meant to say the two main busses run down each side. Bus alternates breaker connection so that loads are distributed better and ease of 240v connection. Have not had my panel open for many years but will be doing soon as I'm putting in either a Sense or Emporia Vue to get a better handle on how house uses power in prep for solar and the Lightning battery backup. Has anyone installed one of these power monitors and which do you like?

 

[Rob G]

@world2steven the tax credit isn’t unique to Tesla and they don’t qualify any longer so I don’t understand the issue.

Every maker who hasn’t delivered the 200,000 is offered the same tax credit. Why is Tesla singled out as a problem here? If they cancel it, that’s Tesla’s fault or legacy markers for not getting to EV tech fast enough? If GM and Ford wanted electric cars they could’ve done them long before Tesla or could’ve bought Tesla early for peanuts and used the tech In their own cars.

EVs are newish tech so it’s pricey. I’m not sure anyone buying one doesn’t have a 7500 tax liability. If you don’t have that liability there’s a good chance you’re paying no tax or getting EIC. Now you’re bidding a political discussion on tax policy. Yeah high earners are getting a tax credit and pay almost the entire tax harvest. You can get the data from irs.gov. If you’re stumping for additional welfare, that’s for a different forum.

 

[world2steven]

If you don’t have that liability there’s a good chance you’re paying no tax or getting EIC.
I would like to know how many readers you just insulted with that remark.
Now you’re bidding a political discussion on tax policy. Yeah high earners are getting a tax credit and pay almost the entire tax harvest. You can get the data from irs.gov.
Is this the same government that borrows trillions of dollars so it can offer you those tax credits? My guess is many of those "high earners" receive more in benefits from that government than they pay into it for taxes.
If you’re stumping for additional welfare, that’s for a different forum.

You need to read my posts more carefully. This isn't just about tax credits. Over and out.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

If you're looking to avoid climate change, and I refuse to get into a political discussion, you better do something about India and China--not that our European friends are doing anything but paying lip service to it. France has increased coal burning and so has Poland.

FWIW, looking at it by country is unfair. Per capita is a much better measurement. Saying you need to reduce it for India and China is saying it is ok for people in those countries to starve.

Per capita it is the richer nations that are causing a per-person issue:

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

Either way, the F150 is a step forward towards that goal.

 

[PV2EV]

Same with me (BTW, we ordered the same truck). I’m installing a 100A circuit in my garage for the Charge Station Pro and an adjacent 50A circuit/plug as a backup/supplement should we get a second EV.

I already have a separate Critical Load Panel (60A manual transfer breaker, 20A max critical circuits) wired to an external 50A plug, with an adjacent NG supply quick-connect stub for a tri-fuel portable generator, all installed when I built my house 14 yrs ago.

The 7.2 KWh, 30A outlet in the Lightning’s bed gives me another e-power supply option in the interim until availability of the SunRun/Delta HIS improves (other threads are stating November 2022) in non-SunRun served States, or other HIS manufacturers develop competing, capable products…..

I need the 40amps to have some margin when my well pump starts, so for me the bed outlet is not enough.

Being from the city I did not know to plan for long term outages in the country when I built the house 11 years ago. Later I bought a replacement Siemens 200amp panel that has a critical loads portion w/transfer switch that I have yet to retrofit in my garage. I am now thinking the Lightning has enough power I can manually control the loads in the current panel.

Off a 125amp accessory panel I have a 40amp run to a clipper creek charger that I now think I will move to the other half of the garage (worse parking spot). Then replace it with a 100amp in from 200amp subpanel, with enough slack to add the HIS is future.

 

[Firestop]

I need the 40amps to have some margin when my well pump starts, so for me the bed outlet is not enough.

Being from the city I did not know to plan for long term outages in the country when I built the house 11 years ago. Later I bought a replacement Siemens 200amp panel that has a critical loads portion w/transfer switch that I have yet to retrofit in my garage. I am now thinking the Lightning has enough power I can manually control the loads in the current panel.

Off a 125amp accessory panel I have a 40amp run to a clipper creek charger that I now think I will move to the other half of the garage (worse parking spot). Then replace it with a 100amp in from 200amp subpanel, with enough slack to add the HIS is future.

Yeah, I’m a city dweller w/o heavy amperage critical circuits who was lucky to have a great electrician when I built…he brought up the idea of installing a separate CLP off the 200A main house panel for the critical 20A (refer, freezer, microwave, exhaust hood) and 15A (NG furnace, great room, main bedroom/bathroom) circuits that could be fed from a 5.5 KW portable generator. A side benefit was it left me plenty of blanks on the panels. Also, on his suggestion, we added the exterior NEMA 14-50 CLP supply inlet and the NG stub so I could use a tri-fuel generator…I just couldn’t afford a whole house generator at the time, and don’t see the need after 14 yrs of experience with this configuration.

At this point, I’m looking at adding solar integrated with an HIS when I need to replace my roof In roughly +/- 10 years…the F-150 L just gives me some flexibility in the interim….

 

[bryan995]

Clearly you do not own a Tesla.

 

[PV2EV]

Yeah, I’m a city dweller w/o heavy amperage critical circuits who was lucky to have a great electrician when I built…he brought up the idea of installing a separate CLP off the 200A main house panel for the critical 20A (refer, freezer, microwave, exhaust hood) and 15A (NG furnace, great room, main bedroom/bathroom) circuits that could be fed from a 5.5 KW portable generator. A side benefit was it left me plenty of blanks on the panels. Also, on his suggestion, we added the exterior NEMA 14-50 CLP supply inlet and the NG stub so I could use a tri-fuel generator…I just couldn’t afford a whole house generator at the time, and don’t see the need after 14 yrs of experience with this configuration.

At this point, I’m looking at adding solar integrated with an HIS when I need to replace my roof In roughly +/- 10 years…the F-150 L just gives me some flexibility in the interim….

Sadly I had a flaky GC who I had to fire, then GC the remaining 60% or the house from 600 miles away. That GC was from a city and did not know rural co-op electricty rates, so I was stuck with a propane based Combi radiant/DHW plan. After using the house for short vacations, and using $1,000 of propane I decided to change to an electric boiler and a HPWH, then added solar. Then when I saw what a farming irrigation pump uses 24/7 for 4-5 months, added more solar.

I almost went with a propane generator during the build, and in hindsight wish I had so the basics would be installed, but very glad I went big (400amp) on the meter panel, which the co-op agreed to install a new transformer as a result of. That and solar made the electricity more reliable, but still have a few winter outages. Neighbor said it was out 3 weeks in flooding in 1995, so trying to retrofit to handle that inevitability.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

FWIW, looking at it by country is unfair. Per capita is a much better measurement. Saying you need to reduce it for India and China is saying it is ok for people in those countries to starve.

Per capita it is the richer nations that are causing a per-person issue:

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

Either way, the F150 is a step forward towards that goal.

You’re correct about per capita being a better measure, but there’s a backup I use whenever I discuss this with someone stubbornly insisting on “by country”: over the course of history added up, no country has had bigger carbon emissions than the US. Oh, yeah, and it also happens to be the place where we as individuals can actually do something to reduce these emissions.

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