Bidirectional charging as a Tesla killer?

[Mr. Flibble]

Nothing is a Tesla Killer.

There is one thing that is a Tesla killer. (kinda)

Volume.

That is, volume from other EV manufacturers such that when you go out to buy an EV, there isn't a shortage and you have choice in the market of various different ones to buy.

Now, it won't kill Tesla outright, but direct competition in the EV space will put big hurt on them, and when their share price returns to more normal valuations, then they will just be a regular car company, with regular car company problems.

Bi-directional power is a big benefit overall. Having a home and vehicle with it is better than not having it. Not everyone will get it, but quite a lot of people will want it. Silverado copying this will step up adoption quickly IMO.

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[F150ROD]

There is one thing that is a Tesla killer. (kinda)

Volume.

That is, volume from other EV manufacturers such that when you go out to buy an EV, there isn't a shortage and you have choice in the market of various different ones to buy.

Now, it won't kill Tesla outright, but direct competition in the EV space will put big hurt on them, and when their share price returns to more normal valuations, then they will just be a regular car company, with regular car company problems.

Bi-directional power is a big benefit overall. Having a home and vehicle with it is better than not having it. Not everyone will get it, but quite a lot of people will want it. Silverado copying this will step up adoption quickly IMO.

If Tesla sees that this Bi-Directional is popular with the masses they will go ahead and implement it into their vehicles.

I think the only Tesla killer is themselves. Specifically Musk. The Model 3 and Y are in need of a Facelift IMO, and there are little features that steer customers away(CarPlay/Android Auto, ride quality, gauge cluster)

 

[Mr. Flibble]

If Tesla sees that this Bi-Directional is popular with the masses they will go ahead and implement it into their vehicles.

I think the only Tesla killer is themselves. Specifically Musk. The Model 3 and Y are in need of a Facelift IMO, and there are little features that steer customers away(CarPlay/Android Auto, ride quality, gauge cluster)

I think you are right - though I think that will also mostly retire power wall as a brand. After all, if you are not home, and the power goes out, you don't need the power wall. If you are home, and the truck is home, you have the same functionality.

I expect Tesla to take a bit of a hit though, mostly because the value of their stock price is wildly inflated. At some point it has to come back down to earth, when it does there is going to be a lot of pain for a lot of people.

 

[adoublee]

It would be nice if the F150 had bidirectional charging. It does not. It is a step forward that they provide direct access to the traction battery voltage, if not otherwise through proprietary means that are expensive and pawned off to ill-equipped low-satisfaction Sunrun.

 

[PV2EV]

HIS was the feature that attracted me to the Lightning. A year later it seems like an after thought, with Ford just passing the buck to a solar leasing company that has deployed used car sales tactics.

At the moment it looks like $10k+ just for the connection of my battery to the house, which is a minor cost in a generator install. If SunRun can include retrofitting this into an existing Solar install (replacing the current inverter), and it includes the 10kW unit (not the 3kW), and the Delta BDI can charge the truck while powering the house from solar, then this might be worth the cost.

Add to this that, if like me you are not in a SunRun state and want to buy the unit yourself, apparently SunRun has control over all orders, and is de-prioritizing those.

I will wait (likely until 2023) for questions on the functionality, install and cost to be answered, or for other solutions like Sol Ark to be implemented.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

HIS was the feature that attracted me to the Lightning. A year later it seems like an after thought, with Ford just passing the buck to a solar leasing company that has deployed used car sales tactics.

At the moment it looks like $10k+ just for the connection of my battery to the house, which is a minor cost in a generator install. If SunRun can include retrofitting this into an existing Solar install (replacing the current inverter), and it includes the 10kW unit (not the 3kW), and the Delta BDI can charge the truck while powering the house from solar, then this might be worth the cost.

Add to this that, if like me you are not in a SunRun state and want to buy the unit yourself, apparently SunRun has control over all orders, and is de-prioritizing those.

I will wait (likely until 2023) for questions on the functionality, install and cost to be answered, or for other solutions like Sol Ark to be implemented.

The inverter is just that. An inverter.

I am pretty sure we will see after market inverters that are not locked into Sun Run. But we have to wait until they start appearing in the wild.

 

[PV2EV]

The inverter is just that. An inverter.

I am pretty sure we will see after market inverters that are not locked into Sun Run. But we have to wait until they start appearing in the wild.

The Delta BDI is more than an inverter. It is bi-directional which most importantly includes the capability to pull DC directly from the truck, unlike other solutions that expect AC input through a generator port. If the $3,900 price includes the 10kW unit, transfer switch and battery, the HW price is reasonable. It is the installation price or delay if not using SunRun which is my concern.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

The Delta BDI is more than an inverter. It is bi-directional which most importantly includes the capability to pull DC directly from the truck, unlike other solutions that expect AC input through a generator port. If the $3,900 price includes the 10kW unit, transfer switch and battery, the HW price is reasonable. It is the installation price or delay if not using SunRun which is my concern.

We won't be using Sunrun - they don't operate where we live, and solar is unfortunately fairly useless for our house. I wish we could use it, but it would have a negative ROI.

You are right, it is more than just an inverter. There is also additional logic through the cloud that allows you to use the truck during high power prices, and charge during low prices.

The tech that makes it all work though, isn't new. So other vendors should be able to build similar devices - provided that Ford did not agree to a proprietary lock in with Sunrun.

Ford? If you are listening. Don't agree to a proprietary lock in. It is a bad idea.

This tech should be an open standard. Chevy is copying it; and I expect others will follow suit.

Ford - you have the chance to be the real leader in this. Don't screw it up for everyone else.

 

[PV2EV]

I suspect one of the proposed V2H/V2X standards will be the norm by the time the Chevy ships. I doubt either Ford or Chevy will implement/update to them in the first gen trucks. So for me, I expect the Ford solution to be proprietary.

 

[Firestop]

HIS was the feature that attracted me to the Lightning. A year later it seems like an after thought, with Ford just passing the buck to a solar leasing company that has deployed used car sales tactics.

At the moment it looks like $10k+ just for the connection of my battery to the house, which is a minor cost in a generator install. If SunRun can include retrofitting this into an existing Solar install (replacing the current inverter), and it includes the 10kW unit (not the 3kW), and the Delta BDI can charge the truck while powering the house from solar, then this might be worth the cost.

Add to this that, if like me you are not in a SunRun state and want to buy the unit yourself, apparently SunRun has control over all orders, and is de-prioritizing those.

I will wait (likely until 2023) for questions on the functionality, install and cost to be answered, or for other solutions like Sol Ark to be implemented.

Same with me (BTW, we ordered the same truck). I’m installing a 100A circuit in my garage for the Charge Station Pro and an adjacent 50A circuit/plug as a backup/supplement should we get a second EV.

I already have a separate Critical Load Panel (60A manual transfer breaker, 20A max critical circuits) wired to an external 50A plug, with an adjacent NG supply quick-connect stub for a tri-fuel portable generator, all installed when I built my house 14 yrs ago.

The 7.2 KWh, 30A outlet in the Lightning’s bed gives me another e-power supply option in the interim until availability of the SunRun/Delta HIS improves (other threads are stating November 2022) in non-SunRun served States, or other HIS manufacturers develop competing, capable products…..

 

[GDN]

Tesla will realize that integrating the Power backup likely won't have any impact on their Powerwall business. There is huge market potential for both. Tesla has stumbled getting their TX factory up to speed quickly, but make no mistake none of the other EV's so far have put a dent in their demand. Their capacity doesn't touch some of the legacy makers, but their technology is leaps ahead of several of them. The playing field will level over time and leap frog back and forth, but from what we see every EV that can be built today has a buyer waiting in line. Tesla is not worried.

 

[PiMatrix]

I'm sure not sure why ANY battery-powered vehicle, even HYBRID plug-ins, don't have a simple 120v outlet to make use of the battery power in the event it's needed, whether for simple tailgating and camping options, or for those feared 'power outages'.... we don't NEED 240v power.

now, as to whether you, or most any 'average' owner, will ever really need a 'full' home backup source, or even a vehicle-to-vehicle charging capability, is much less likely. It's sure a convenience if it ever does come into play, but it's likelihood(probability) is much less certain. The cost may not justify it, but having it as an 'option' would be a likely positive offer. Even if you have a 12v outlet, with enough power, you can purchase a run a very inexpensive 'option': a power inverter.

Most homes in the US split the 240 volts into two 120 Volt circuits. You'll likely see that on your panel. The circuit breakers on one side run on 120 and the other are 120 with a 180 degree phase shift. You need 240v for items that would require high current, doubling the voltage halfs the current for the same power thus smaller wires. The lightning does have 120 and 240v, the 240 allows you to run one wire to the house and power the whole house, both sides of your panel with the right transfer switch. 240 volts can run a nice welder right from back of your truck!

 

[Maquis]

Most homes in the US split the 240 volts into two 120 Volt circuits. You'll likely see that on your panel. The circuit breakers on one side run on 120 and the other are 120 with a 180 degree phase shift.

That’s not how residential panels are constructed. The left and right busses have fingers that the breakers attach to. Thus each alternating breaker position is on the opposite “phase”. If each side were all on the same buss, a 2 pole breaker would not provide 240V.

 

[personalt]

I'm sure not sure why ANY battery-powered vehicle, even HYBRID plug-ins, don't have a simple 120v outlet to make use of the battery power in the event it's needed, whether for simple tailgating and camping options, or for those feared 'power outages'.... we don't NEED 240v power.

now, as to whether you, or most any 'average' owner, will ever really need a 'full' home backup source, or even a vehicle-to-vehicle charging capability, is much less likely. It's sure a convenience if it ever does come into play, but it's likelihood(probability) is much less certain. The cost may not justify it, but having it as an 'option' would be a likely positive offer. Even if you have a 12v outlet, with enough power, you can purchase a run a very inexpensive 'option': a power inverter.

240 volt is way better since you have 240 volt at the house. With 240 you can go right in to a transfer switch and with some load shedding run off the car with one cable

 

[Rob G]

Why does everyone believe that every new EV is a or has to be a Tesla killer? Bi-directional charging is definitely interesting and I believe the adoption will grow over time but doubt it factors heavily into EV purchase decision. Moreover, I am sure Tesla will do it as an adjunct to their power wall technology.

I think the most important things in EV are range, batter tech and charging. Right now Tesla is the leader in most of those and has the largest and most reliable charging network. Over time that will change as well.

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