Home back up - Emporia V2X Bi-Directional 48A charger + 11kW home power - thoughts ?

[adoublee]

It appears too small to include a solar inverter. The Ford / SunRun HIS solution has a Microgrid, keeping your solar on when the grid is down, and has a 97% efficiency of PV to EV charging, which is why I wanted it.

Sadly it went from a 10kW PV solution, to 4kW which is too small to run your house and charge your truck during the day, then running the house off the truck at night.

This was the feature I wanted out of the truck, and now I will wait for gen2 V2H solutions that are proven with MY22 Lightnings. I may be waiting forever.

I believe there is still 9.6kW available for charging the truck from PV, but DC-AC to home wiring when grid-interactive appears limited to 4kW. Charging the truck through the DC EVSE connection would have to be able to be enabled in software though, and I am not sure that is being allowed out of the box. Ford has not said this works, but the Delta/Sunrun/Ford inverter shows this port to be bidirectional.

Sponsored

 

[shutterbug]

Temp Range
-40°F to 122°F (-40°C to +50°C)

This is something Ford's solution failed to meet.

 

[Roy2001]

Thousands of dollars for backup power is too much.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Thousands of dollars for backup power is too much.

Generac, Kohler, B&S, Honeywell, Cummins among many others seem to disagree. So much so that they seem to be successful in selling backup power that costs tens of thousands of dollars.

10kW of backup for even Fords ($1300+$3,800) is not all that bad compared to a gas generator.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Instead of forced to use SunRun & Ford's 80A FCPS EVSE, a company came out with an alternative bi-directional 48A L2 home charge & back up using the DC FC connector.

This option might be a hit for the SR battery Lightning owners...

https://www.emporiaenergy.com/how-the-emporia-v2x-charger-works

V2X Bi-Directional Charger Specs
‍
Type
V2X (V2H/V2G) Bi-Directional / Level 2 / 48A
Inverter
Integrated silicon-carbide-based AC/DC inverter designed by BREK Electronics
Charging
Power: 11.52kW
Input: 240V/48A AC
Output: 0-450V/40A DC
Peak Efficiency: >98%
Discharging
Power: 11.52kW
Input: 0-450V/40A DC
Output: 240V/48A AC
Peak Efficiency: >98%
Connector
25’ cable with CCS Type 1 connector
Interface
ISO 15118 V2G interface
Dimensions
Charging Station: 16" x 12" x 4" (406mm x 305mm x 102mm)
Charging Gun: 12" x 3" (305mm x 76mm)
Enclosure
IP66 waterproof indoor/outdoor
WiFi
2.4 GHz 802.11b/g/n
Temp Range
-40°F to 122°F (-40°C to +50°C)
Certifications
This product is in the design phase, with expected release in 2023. Like all Emporia products, the Emporia V2X Bi-Directional Charger is being designed with your safety in mind. It will be manufactured to meet the safety criteria defined by these international standards: UL1741SA (Inverter), UL 2231, UL 1998, UL 9741, UL 2202.

Wow, this is really good news Emporia is a company that makes some seriously good kit. Their Home Energy Monitor is something that I want to install after we redo all our panels, and I trust them a lot more than I do Sunrun.

I was hoping that others would come out with a solution - looks like that is happening. Even better, my guess is that this will become some sort of "standard" that other vehicles can support, though, only the Lightning is doing it currently.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Thousands of dollars for backup power is too much.

I got a quote for a Generac that works off of our Propane tank - it was $11,000 for about 8000 W - and we would not be able to run all the breakers in our house.

The Lightning has greater output than the Generac quote did.

Also, running the generator off of Propane is insanely expensive.

 

[adoublee]

Thousands of dollars for backup power is too much.

Until the power has been out for 48 hours. Then it magically appears priceless.

 

[Roy2001]

Until the power has been out for 48 hours. Then it magically appears priceless.

OK, for those situation it makes sense.

The worst situation I had was a few hours, I can definitely use F150 solely as a generator if need.

 

[jefro]

"The SR trucks also require a paid software unlock to enable the intelligent backup feature." Creeps.

I don't know if that unit really does use DC lugs to charge or not. Will need them to get power out. The web site said something like integrate with solar and it can be smart to stop when load like AC runs.

 

[PV2EV]

I believe there is still 9.6kW available for charging the truck from PV, but DC-AC to home wiring when grid-interactive appears limited to 4kW. Charging the truck through the DC EVSE connection would have to be able to be enabled in software though, and I am not sure that is being allowed out of the box. Ford has not said this works, but the Delta/Sunrun/Ford inverter shows this port to be bidirectional.

I think the 4kW BDI supports only a single PV string of up to 4 kW. The specsheet says it has a direct PV2EV (DC to DC) charging capability at 97% efficiency.

 

[adoublee]

I think the 4kW BDI supports only a single PV string of up to 4 kW. The specsheet says it has a direct PV2EV (DC to DC) charging capability at 97% efficiency.

I'm not sure where you are getting that, even though Delta's spec sheet isn't completely clear. I'm seeing up to 8 strings with 4 maximum power point trackers (limit 12A per MPPT, 480VDC). The only thing not clear to my is what AC value is referenced with the Max DC/AC limit of 1.3, since AC conversion is 9.6kW in offgrid mode for all variants, 4kW when grid-interactive.

 

[PV2EV]

Thinking about the Emporia solution here, I would much rather have its 48A, vs the 40A of the HIS. What is needed for V2H is a standard for 1. DC from a vehicle to a house as AC (decoupling the PV inverter like Emporia), 2. Microgrid controller to disconnect the grid when down, and keep PV up, and 3. A PV inverter that can send DC to a battery (via the microgrid controller?) in addition to sending AC to the grid.

This separates the functions, lowering cost of each item, and may allow retrofit for existing PV inverters. I would go for it, even if I had to send PV DC through the inverter to the truck as AC. All I need is a way for the microgrid controller to signal the current PV inverter to stay up (if the truck is connected as as a dump load).

 

[PV2EV]

I'm not sure where you are getting that, even though Delta's spec sheet isn't completely clear. I'm seeing up to 8 strings with 4 maximum power point trackers (limit 12A per MPPT, 480VDC). The only thing not clear to my is what AC value is referenced with the Max DC/AC limit of 1.3, since AC conversion is 9.6kW in offgrid mode for all variants, 4kW when grid-interactive.

Apparently I have old info. Per the above there is no difference for PV on any of the BDIs. And the only difference if the AC output on grid (from the truck?), which is just weird to be a limiting factor. The solution needs a white paper, or at least a noted photo of a completed install.

 

[PiMatrix]

I'm not sure where you are getting that, even though Delta's spec sheet isn't completely clear. I'm seeing up to 8 strings with 4 maximum power point trackers (limit 12A per MPPT, 480VDC). The only thing not clear to my is what AC value is referenced with the Max DC/AC limit of 1.3, since AC conversion is 9.6kW in offgrid mode for all variants, 4kW when grid-interactive.

While there are four different versions of the HIS only one is publicly for sale, the 4kW version. I think the ONLY way to obtain the other versions with the multiple string inverters is to order, ie. lease with 3%/year inflation, a complete solar system from Sunrun. Note that even though the E4_BDI is 4kW above it can still supply 9.6kW from the 400v Lightning battery via the FSCP DC output terminals.

I think realistically until end of 1Q or 2Q23 we won't have much choice but the Ford HIS. Then Emporia, maybe Clipper Creek (ENphase) and others are all developing V2H, V2G, V2X bidirectional chargers and they are much less expensive than Sunrun HIS. $1300+3900 vs say $1500. Of course they don't do solar but presumably you have a solar system these will integrate with OR just a direct hookup to your panel for backup. None of these are 80 (76a) chargers, instead they are 48Amps but at 20miles/hour of charge probably fine most use conditions. I think if you need 15-100% in 8 hrs then Ford/Sunrun will be your only choice as likely these companies are going for max use condition. The Ford FCSP is 30miles/hr of charge while a 48A will give you 20 miles/hr of charge. 15-100% on a 48a charger will take 14 hrs vs 8 hrs.

If you have a standard battery there is no advantage to the 80A charger and you should go with 48A. Remember the Lightning has TWO 19.2 kW built in chargers and at 80A you are only using one of these, only when using the DCFS charger do you use both. And the FSCP, emporia, etc. is not really a charger, it's just a 240 pass thru connection via a relay with some thermistors, shutoff, and wifi to control and monitor everything. The chargers are in the Lightning. The Emporias, etc do have an inverter to convert the 400v DC back to 240AC grid

 

[PV2EV]

While there are four different versions of the HIS only one is publicly for sale, the 4kW version. I think the ONLY way to obtain the other versions with the multiple string inverters is to order, ie. lease with 3%/year inflation, a complete solar system from Sunrun. Note that even though the E4_BDI is 4kW above it can still supply 9.6kW from the 400v Lightning battery via the FSCP DC output terminals.

I think realistically until end of 1Q or 2Q23 we won't have much choice but the Ford HIS. Then Emporia, maybe Clipper Creek (ENphase) and others are all developing V2H, V2G, V2X bidirectional chargers and they are much less expensive than Sunrun HIS. $1300+3900 vs say $1500. Of course they don't do solar but presumably you have a solar system these will integrate with OR just a direct hookup to your panel for backup. None of these are 80 (76a) chargers, instead they are 48Amps but at 20miles/hour of charge probably fine most use conditions. I think if you need 15-100% in 8 hrs then Ford/Sunrun will be your only choice as likely these companies are going for max use condition. The Ford FCSP is 30miles/hr of charge while a 48A will give you 20 miles/hr of charge. 15-100% on a 48a charger will take 14 hrs vs 8 hrs.

If you have a standard battery there is no advantage to the 80A charger and you should go with 48A. Remember the Lightning has TWO 19.2 kW built in chargers and at 80A you are only using one of these, only when using the DCFS charger do you use both. And the FSCP, emporia, etc. is not really a charger, it's just a 240 pass thru connection via a relay with some thermistors, shutoff, and wifi to control and monitor everything. The chargers are in the Lightning. The Emporias, etc do have an inverter to convert the 400v DC back to 240AC grid

My comment of 48A vs 40A was the AC power provided to the house. 48A is much easier to budget with.

Sponsored