So...reserved 2 hours in...with reservation number...I'm assuming SOL on price protection?

[cvalue13]

Basing invitations to order purely on time stamp of the reservation is the only fair way to do it in my opinion.

Tesla doesn’t do it this way, Ford doesn’t, and - while I’m less familiar - I don’t believe Rivian does, either.

givin the apparent consistency, is there a good reason.

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[SteffanG]

Worse is that I am in Canada. I ordered the truck and have not got scheduled for a build even though my dealer told me I was #6 of 12 allocations (i reserved 25 mins after the presentation started). I am phoning later today to find out but from other things I have heard on the forum the price is going up about $14k. That $14k after the taxes are paid on it become a $19k price increase (15% tax plus a 20% luxury tax on the $14k). I have a feeling at almost $140k after taxes for a Lariat high, they are going to have A LOT of cancellations as that is over $40k more than an ICE version. There is rumors of no price protection for Canadians even if an order was placed.

 

[greenne]

I agree with the original poster. I am amazed I am not seeing more discussion about the price increase. I reserved during the announcement on 5/19. Why should I now have to pay $7-8k more because Ford choose to prioritize BEV states and "preferred" dealers. I am next in line at my dealer and really questioning if I will order when I get the chance. This new tax credit also throws a lot of unknowns and possible additional price increases. I don't blame Ford for these as they are outside Fords control. Ford is still misleading customers by advertising the old 7500 tax credit. It also seems like the truck will likely only qualify for part of the new tax credit due to material sourcing from China. So if I only get 3750 that takes my price increase to over 10K due to Ford jumping other reservations ahead of mine.

To be honest I would be less pissed with Ford than I am with Rivian right now. No one likes price increases, but at least Ford was honest about it and just did it with no games. Rivian canceled the "base trim" I had reserved and are telling folks they have to reconfigure or else. I get that they need a price increase, but don't hide behind the "demand" BS. Just tell people.

Regarding the tax credit, Ford was set to be out of credits anyway with the old system..so the new tax credits are pretty much a wash within 1-2 qtrs anyway.

Also-- Its obvious Ford and GM have a much better legal team than Rivian. By labeling the first contact as a "reservation" it states very clearly what you are buying for your $100..a place in line. In the fine print it spells out that you are NOT in any way guaranteed a truck or a price. This is very different than Rivian which labels it as an "order". There is an inference there by people that once they "order" they are locking in the price. That is where Rivian screwed up.(the first time). Tesla does the same thing, I can't wait for the storm that is going to come *if* the cybertruck ever comes to market. People should know better(Elon being Elon)..but there is no way the MSRP on the Cybertruck is going to be anywhere close to the price Tesla advertised the thing at launch and in the "order" process.

 

[greenne]

It is misleading because it is on the 23 order configuration page of which 90% will not qualify with only a small disclaimer to state that. Final assembly only qualifies for half the tax credit in 23 and there is no mention of the reduced tax credit that the 90% will possibly qualify for if your income and vehicle configuration meet the criteria.

At least Ford didn't try the Tesla BS where they roll in the "fuel savings" to artificially lower the displayed price...

 

[metroshot]

You are absolutely right. But what I think is important, in a thread about price protection for early reservation holders, is to not just give Ford a pass and say "this is all because of material costs and inflation and supply chain issues." Ford is totally able to raise prices due to inflation or due to massive demand. Ford can react to the demand like any business would. But I just don't think Ford should get away with blaming it on inflation. The demand came in WAY higher than Ford thought initially, and at least some percentage of the price increase is a reaction to that high demand.

It's not giving a pass for Ford IMO, I have a 2022 Mustang Mach E on order 6 months ago and it got a price increase mid year and then another increase if it gets bumped into 2023 MY which is what it is looking like.

Much as I don't like price increases, it's a fact with every other brand - not just Ford.

Ford is a FOR PROFIT company - not a "charitable organization"....

 

[jb56]

It's not giving a pass for Ford IMO, I have a 2022 Mustang Mach E on order 6 months ago and it got a price increase mid year and then another increase if it gets bumped into 2023 MY which is what it is looking like.

Much as I don't like price increases, it's a fact with every other brand - not just Ford.

Ford is a FOR PROFIT company - not a "charitable organization"....

Yeah, we agree on that. So many threads on here are confusing.

People (not necessarily you) get on here and say that these increases are about inflation and supply issues and this and that, and I say "oh, and Ford is making way more profit than 2019 as well, so part of this is a response to massive demand and a desire to make profit"

And then people argue with me.

And then you and others say "it's a for profit company" and I'm like, yeah, that's what I said.

What I have a problem with is not Ford making profit. My problem is Ford and Ford apologists pretending like Profit isn't the primary motive for the decisions they make. And if Ford realizes that it can make more and more net income off less revenue and customers will put up with that, Ford will continue to do it, right? Because it is not a charitable organization.

 

[cvalue13]

I say "oh, and Ford is making way more profit than 2019 as well, so part of this is a response to massive demand and a desire to make profit"

i understand the miscommunication you’re describing, and perhaps it in part emanates from this seemingly mixed message that can be interpreted(misinterpreted!) from the “making way more profit” but that’s mixed in here. That is, there at times begins to be the appearance of suggesting not merely that Ford is a for-profit company (whichI agree should be non-controversial), but instead/even a wildly profitable company that has is being … greedy? … in its mission for profits?

Maybe another way to frame it is, sometime people’s tones appear to think Ford is a financial juggernaut that is multiplying it’s already indefeasible empire, whereas others have the (in my opinion) more pragmatic view that Ford (like other domestic manufacturers) are nearly as bad as airlines in terms of actual profits justifying their continued existence absence consistent government intervention.

Maybe this isn’t at all your actual view, but just pointing out that at times the references to ~ “they’re making much more profit“ in the same breath as ~ “and still raising prices”can at times appear to have a gloss of moral judgment overlayed.

 

[jb56]

Maybe this isn’t at all your actual view, but just pointing out that at times the references to ~ “they’re making much more profit“ in the same breath as ~ “and still raising prices”can at times appear to have a gloss of moral judgment overlayed.

I'm not making moral judgments here. But it seems very clear to me that Ford is taking financial advantage of all this, like so many other companies are. Higher prices, lower operating cost, higher profits, while (from my point of view) not needing to emphasize customer service as much.

Someone may feel that is appropriate or inappropriate or moral or immoral, I suppose. Someone can also disagree about all of this, but the part about Ford making way more profit on less revenue and fewer sales is pretty much undisputed.

 

[greenne]

I would be interested in seeing what Ford's profit margin is on the 2023s vs the 2022s. My guess is it isn't as large as some people on here think it is.

I'm sure Ford has a whole team of accountants which number crunch this stuff, but people on here need a reality check on how bad inflation is on.. everything.

Also-- the market is such that if Ford *really* wanted to maximize profit they would jack price up a lot more than $7k and they will still be sold out for the next 12 months(at least).

Its unpopular and painful.. but probably closer to truth than the big bad Ford theme. Ford makes a convenient punching bag for a lot of bigger scale problems.

 

[cvalue13]

Someone can also disagree about all of this, but the part about Ford making way more profit on less revenue and fewer sales is pretty much undisputed.

yeah, that’s where the phraseology gets…strange to my ear
maybe I’m projecting, but the turns of phrase like ”way more profit” starts to sound value-based, rather than reporting

an example of what I mean is: you know what types of companies also make “way more profit” than they used to? Companies that have just exited restructuring after bankruptcy.

similarly and not too different in kind, for a company like Ford that was just bailed out by taxpayers to the tune of a $6 billion dollar loan that they only just paid off in June of this year, I should hope they finally are making any actual profit whatsoever (not subsidized by my taxes)

As it turns out, it may be that being able to weather financial downturns requires even “more profit on less revenue and fewer sales”

We absolutely agree that Ford is a for-profit company. It’s less clear if we agree that Ford is any good at that project, absent significant increases in vehicle prices

 

[orangefirefish]

For Tesla, if I understand correctly… you order the vehicle in a particular trim. People that ordered a higher trim later than you might have gotten theirs first, which isn’t unreasonable, but they’ll go by timestamp within a particular style/trim. I think where people are miffed is that early reservations got passed over for ordering ( and then the Pro ran out in wave 1), and on top of that those that got prioritized and declined to order, got priority in ordering this year, then they get the private offer coupon, while someone that reserved during the presentation didn’t get to order and if they even get to order this year, they pay the increased price. In other words, some folks got the golden ticket twice, due to unknown factors, and some early folks got jack squat.

Tesla doesn’t do it this way, Ford doesn’t, and - while I’m less familiar - I don’t believe Rivian does, either.

givin the apparent consistency, is there a good reason.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

Also-- the market is such that if Ford *really* wanted to maximize profit they would jack price up a lot more than $7k and they will still be sold out for the next 12 months(at least).

I think Ford is trying to keep the price as competitive as possible.

I don't think they will jack up the price any more than they have to.

Just because they CAN raise the price more and still sell out next year doesn't mean it would benefit them to do that.

In order to maximize profit, Ford needs to sell a few hundred thousand per year. The prices they set reflect their plans to sell large numbers of trucks.

If they jacked up the price another $20k or more just because they can... And they certainly would still sell out in 2023 if they did this, it would not improve profit long term.

They really need to sell a whole lot of these toaxi.ize profit.

No amount of price increase is going to make a big change in Ford's profit if they can only in lowish volume.

Ford will never achieve their goals of selling hundreds of thousands of Lightnings oer year if they don't resist the urge to raise prices as much as the market can support right now. The market only supports higher prices because Ford isn't making many trucks, which is bad for profit. Once Ford makes more trucks, the market won't support higher prices.

 

[jb56]

yeah, that’s where the phraseology gets…strange to my ear
maybe I’m projecting, but the turns of phrase like ”way more profit” starts to sound value-based, rather than reporting

an example of what I mean is: you know what types of companies also make “way more profit” than they used to? Companies that have just exited restructuring after bankruptcy.

similarly and not too different in kind, for a company like Ford that was just bailed out by taxpayers to the tune of a $6 billion dollar loan that they only just paid off in June of this year, I should hope they finally are making any actual profit whatsoever (not subsidized by my taxes)

As it turns out, it may be that being able to weather financial downturns requires even “more profit on less revenue and fewer sales”

We absolutely agree that Ford is a for-profit company. It’s less clear if we agree that Ford is any good at that project, absent significant increases in vehicle prices

Fair points.

 

[jb56]

I think Ford is trying to keep the price as competitive as possible.

I don't thi.k they will jack up the price any more than they have to.

Just because they CAN raise the price more and still sell out next year doesn't mean it would benefit them to do that.

In order to maximize profit, Ford needs to sell a few hundred thousand per year. The prices they set reflect their plans to sell large numbers of trucks.

If they jacked up the price another $20k or more just because they can... And they certainly would still sell out in 2023 if they did this, it would not improve profit long term.

They really need to sell a whole lot of these toaxi.ize profit.

No amount of price increase is going to make a big change in Ford's profit if they can only in lowish volume.

Ford will never achieve their goals of selling hundreds of thousands of Lightnings oer year if they don't resist the urge to raise prices as much as the market can support right now. The market only supports higher prices because Ford isn't making many trucks, which is bad for profit. Once Ford makes more trucks, the market won't support higher prices.

It's not that low of volume though. Cost of good sold for Ford in 2021 was still 111 billion (vs 137 billion in 2018). That's a significant decline, but Ford is still selling a crap ton of vehicles overall, and most new vehicles ford sold in 2021 were at sticker price. In early 2020, I purchased an Expedition Max for $8,000 under sticker. That just wasn't happening in most of 2021 or in this year.

 

[greenne]

I think Ford is trying to keep the price as competitive as possible.

I don't thi.k they will jack up the price any more than they have to.

Just because they CAN raise the price more and still sell out next year doesn't mean it would benefit them to do that.

In order to maximize profit, Ford needs to sell a few hundred thousand per year. The prices they set reflect their plans to sell large numbers of trucks.

If they jacked up the price another $20k or more just because they can... And they certainly would still sell out in 2023 if they did this, it would not improve profit long term.

They really need to sell a whole lot of these toaxi.ize profit.

No amount of price increase is going to make a big change in Ford's profit if they can only in lowish volume.

Ford will never achieve their goals of selling hundreds of thousands of Lightnings oer year if they don't resist the urge to raise prices as much as the market can support right now. The market only supports higher prices because Ford isn't making many trucks, which is bad for profit. Once Ford makes more trucks, the market won't support higher prices.

Agree 100% and add there are a whole lot of factors at play here...some of which are unique to Ford and do not apply to Rivian and/or Tesla.

Ford has worldwide portfolio of both gas/EV vehicles they can spread both losses and profits. It may be beneficial to keep profit thin on a particular model if they think it will help sales down the line. They have the working capital to do that. Rivian does not have that luxury. Tesla is somewhere in the middle.

Conversely, Ford only has to fund some retooling and R&D cost with the Lightning...Rivian and Tesla have to fund the entire startup costs.

The silverado and Ram will add more complexity to the pricing. Right now Ford is still the best deal out there for an EV pickup. Will that change in 1-2yrs..you bet. Ford have to be a bit more cost competitive competing against GM/Ram than they will Rivian/Tesla.

I guess we'll see.

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