[Updated with Ford statement 2/15/23] 🛑 Lightning Stop Production / Stop Shipment Issued (due to potential battery issue)

[metroshot]

I agree that # of recalls doesn't tell you anything about the seriousness of a recall. But the question that we're discussing is, "Does a recall basically have to do with a reliability issue for a vehicle, or could it be that actually the reliability issues involved are really insignificant compared to other manufacturers and Ford is just being incredibly conscientious (and stupidly digging itself into a deeper hole) by volunteering to recall a vehicle when it really needn't and even if it did, its recall issues could be very insignificant compared to anyone else's." (I'm deliberately exaggerating your point a bit.

I think the simplest interpretation is "a recall = a reliability issue of significance to either safety or the value of the vehicle the customer deserves."

It's not an official recall.

Just a manufacturer's voluntary stop build /stop ship order.

Nothing to get alarmed about.

OTOH: My wiper motor recall is real - that affects a lot and have the letter from Ford.
But the part for the recall won't happen till summer!

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[Jim Lewis]

A bit off-topic here, but today I appear to have gotten approval from Sunrun via an e-mail to hook up the HIS backup system directly to an existing sub-panel with twenty-six 20-amp 120-volt circuits in it and a 30-amp 240-volt drier circuit, on proviso that I use the HIS system in manual mode as I volunteered to do: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...kup-home-integration-system.14535/post-302279

In such a setup, I had been worried about the sub-panel drawing too much power from the truck battery (trying to get back on-topic to this thread!) and the e-mail said that I didn't need to worry about accidentally drawing too much power from the truck, because the truck had means to protect itself (but no details on what that protection is or whether I'll have to go to my dealer for a fuse replacement, etc.,!).

So, with the battery fire in Michigan, it's nice to know that stressing out my truck on-board power circuity or the FCSP circuitry and making some wiring very hot with the truck in my garage is not something to worry about (too much). A rep from my dealer called me today (they hadn't heard about the fire - just Ford's official PR line), told me my truck would be delayed, and offered to sell me one of several (!) Lightnings they had on their lot! None of them were white (I want that for Texas summer heat reduction), and I told the rep that the truck I eventually get is likely to be much more carefully vetted for any potential battery problems than the trucks now on their lot were. Perhaps I was a little too flippant about "very willing to wait for Ford to straighten out this mess...," as I seemed to have pissed the guy off with my attitude and also my negativity about the "Whole Home Backup" solution being offered by the Ford/Sunrun partnership.

 

[abel408]

This is so confusing for people who have vehicles in transit or waiting at a railyard. Some people have reported that they have received delivery after the stop production/stop shipment, so ford must be determining that they are not affect right? If the truck is in transit, is it being held or should we actually expect delivery soon?

 

[cvalue13]

I think the simplest interpretation is "a recall = a reliability issue of significance to either safety or the value of the vehicle the customer deserves… that the company is addressing.

Fixed it for you.

And its corollary is: “the absence of a recall = a potential reliability issue of significance to either safety or the value of the vehicle the customer deserves … that the company isn’t addressing.”

I think we’re in strange “violent agreement.”

the point you’re attributing to me wasn’t a point I was standing behind. It was merely an example I offered regarding the lack of relevance in (someone else previously) saying “Ford is #1 in recalls.”

If during the last several years Ford was also #1 in issuing new and additional safety features, then any issues with those new safety features would be the subject of a recall. It would be strange to suggest that a company that isn’t offering new and additional safety features is providing a more reliable and safer vehicle overall since they have fewer resulting recalls.

There is no necessary correlation between the recall load of a manufacturer and the resulting reliability or safety of that manufacturers vehicles relative to other manufacturers. Recalls more directly speak to the intended reliability or safety of a manufacturer’s vehicles compared the that same manufacturer’s resulting reliability and safety.

Take gross safety as the relevant metric. I don’t think anyone would argue that on average vehicle produced in the 1960s were safer than the average vehicle produced in the 2010s. Yet:

The data above is admittedly complex, as there are potentially several cross-cutting factors causing the obvious trend. For example, on one hand maybe there are simply that many more models of vehicles in the road, causing a distortion in the increasing numbers of recalls. On the other hand, perhaps modern vehicles have an order of magnitude more of various safety-related features, increasing the frequency of issues requiring a recall.

Whatever the complexities and cross-cutting of the data may be, it goes to the point: brute number of recalls doesn’t alone give relevant context in determining the resulting safety and reliability of a given manufacturer compared to other manufacturers.

Admittedly, the optics of recalls creates a natural perception of reliability issues; and unfortunately most publicly available “reliability scores” rely on consumer reported perceptions of a vehicle’s reliability. So, cars with higher recall rates (especially those with widely publicized recalls) will be likely to receive poor reliability scores.

To be fair to those respondents, the need for committing time (even if no money) to having the recall addressed is a nuisance at best.

 

[MickeyAO]

I've only been involved in testing EVs and batteries for 12 years, so maybe this is just wild speculation, but I'm willing to lay money on what I think is the reason for the one fire and the many letters going out to customers about MODULE replacements...Could it be mismatched voltages between modules and charging the entire battery to 100% SOC cause a module to be overcharged enough to go into a thermal runaway?

Personally, I'm not worried about this. After all these years of researching Li-ion batteries, I charge to 85% SOC on a daily basis. Based on my actual driving, I could even go to a lower SOC, but I know this is still a very safe level.

If you want, you can search for my previous posts on how to make your battery live for almost forever based on all the testing I have done.

For those that are wanting to switch to LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate), yes it is a much safer chemistry, but you will not have the same kick in the pants when punching the accelerator as you get with NMC (Nickle Manganese Colbolt)

 

[Jim Lewis]

All I can say is that my (Japanese-built) 2007 Honda Accord Hybrid has NEVER had any recalls. It's 16 years old with something like 75,000 miles on it and has needed next to no service other than scheduled maintenance and NIMH hybrid battery replacement (they only last 7 to 8 years, and the car isn't driveable without it!). My Honda dealer says the vehicle is in excellent shape, and I will test his claim when I try to sell it back to him (Ford doesn't want it as a trade-in)! The wife has had some Takata airbag recalls with her Hondas. But starting in 1981, when we bought a Nissan Stanza hatchback (IMHO, the nicest vehicle we've ever owned), we've never owned an American vehicle since then. Being a rather right-wing American youth, I felt like a traitor to my country. In the '80s, I knew a number of other folks who had bought a foreign-made vehicle and said there was no way they were returning to American vehicles again. I just hope my Ford F-150 Lightning has half the reliability of the Japanese vehicles we've owned since the 1980s. (my first car, besides a hand-me-down from my dad, was a '74 Chevy Vega! - which I actually liked and maintained entirely by myself).

I remember, as a high-school graduate, being rushed by Beta Theta Pi at MIT. The frat brother sent to recruit me bragged that he had a well-paying summer-time union job with U.S. Steel, IIRC, and his foreman allowed him to sleep on the job and still get paid. And this is a guy who, when he graduated from college, would probably get a high-paying administrative or engineering job in American industry! So my opinion then, and still is now, is that this is what's wrong with American culture. Like Dire Straits sang,

"That ain't workin', that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free."

Maybe the basic problem is just to err is human, and Americans are good at it. We need more robots! Or more OCD humans on the assembly line (and not sleeping in a breakroom).

TLDR; Where's there's smoke, there's fire. Recalls are the smoke and some auto makers have a lot of things on fire, like Li-ion batteries.

Edit_Update: USA Today summary of Consumer Reports 2023 relative ranking of auto makers:
Best new cars, trucks and SUVs of 2023, according to Consumer Reports (usatoday.com)

2023 Auto Brand Rankings
Also Thursday, Consumer Reports released its annual Auto Brand Report Card Rankings, which look at which automakers are producing the best-performing, safe, and reliable vehicles based on independent testing and surveys. (Higher scores are better.)

1. BMW: 81
2. Subaru: 79
3. Mini: 79
4. Lexus: 77
5. Honda: 77
6. Toyota: 76
7. Genesis: 76
8. Mazda: 75
9. Audi: 74
10. Kia: 73
11. Acura: 72
12. Buick: 71
13. Hyundai: 71
14. Porsche: 70
15. Dodge: 68
16. Lincoln: 66
17. Tesla: 66
18. Infiniti: 65
19. Volkswagen: 64
20. Volvo: 64
21. Nissan: 63
22. Ford: 63
23. Chevrolet: 62
24. Cadillac: 62
25. Chrysler: 62
26. Mercedes-Benz: 56
27. GMC: 55
28. Mitsubishi: 54
29. Alfa Romeo: 53
30. Jaguar: 52
31. Jeep: 46
32. Land Rover: 45

 

[GDN]

I've only been involved in testing EVs and batteries for 12 years, so maybe this is just wild speculation, but I'm willing to lay money on what I think is the reason for the one fire and the many letters going out to customers about MODULE replacements...Could it be mismatched voltages between modules and charging the entire battery to 100% SOC cause a module to be overcharged enough to go into a thermal runaway?

Personally, I'm not worried about this. After all these years of researching Li-ion batteries, I charge to 85% SOC on a daily basis. Based on my actual driving, I could even go to a lower SOC, but I know this is still a very safe level.

If you want, you can search for my previous posts on how to make your battery live for almost forever based on all the testing I have done.

For those that are wanting to switch to LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate), yes it is a much safer chemistry, but you will not have the same kick in the pants when punching the accelerator as you get with NMC (Nickle Manganese Colbolt)

Shouldn't the BMS know about the cell and control the charging situation to prevent the thermal runaway?

 

[MickeyAO]

Shouldn't the BMS know about the cell and control the charging situation to prevent the thermal runaway?

Really depends on the BMS operation. We recently learned that a major OEM that we are doing a lot of work for that their onboard BMS won't ACTUALLY shut things down if Vmax is violated for an individual string. We have to manually monitor all strings when charging their packs for testing. They have an external unit responsible for this, but I cannot comment on its' operational parameters.

 

[MickeyAO]

It is important to remember that cells in parallel will self-balance, but strings in series will not without bleed resisters designed to lower the voltage of strings that are too high.

 

[Maxx]

Building defect free batteries is hard! 288 cells in the 60kwh battery pack means that a one in a million defect at the cell level would statistically affect one in 3500 cars.

It also means getting barbecued in a Lightning ER is twice as likely as an average EV.

I wonder if Tesla’s 4680 reduce that risk by reducing total number of batteries in the pack.

 

[detansinn]

It looks like they are starting to release trucks that were stopped in transit. The delivery date of mine got moved up a week (it was supposed to be this week).

 

[Maxx]

Really depends on the BMS operation. We recently learned that a major OEM that we are doing a lot of work for that their onboard BMS won't ACTUALLY shut things down if Vmax is violated for an individual string. We have to manually monitor all strings when charging their packs for testing. They have an external unit responsible for this, but I cannot comment on its' operational parameters.

‘Can you explain what you mean by External? Do you mean outside what is known as BMS unit yet shipped with the car? If so, theoretically it could be just as safe as something that has that function included in BMS?

 

[Lightning Rod]

It looks like they are starting to release trucks that were stopped in transit. The delivery date of mine got moved up a week (it was supposed to be this week).

This is good news.

May I ask... when was your build week and when was your BUILT date?

 

[detansinn]

This is good news.

May I ask... when was your build week and when was your BUILT date?

Build Week was 1/9. Built 1/16.

 

[Maxx]

2023 Auto Brand Rankings
Also Thursday, Consumer Reports released its annual Auto Brand Report Card Rankings, which look at which automakers are producing the best-performing, safe, and reliable vehicles based on independent testing and surveys. (Higher scores are better.)

1. BMW: 81
2. Subaru: 79
3. Mini: 79
4. Lexus: 77

I am surprised Mini and BMW are ahead of Lexus.

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