100%/75%/50%/25% Depth of Charge Graph for NMC Batteries

[Helium]

Great info.

What excites me most about EVs is that although most of the the focus is on how long the battery will last, the reality is that they'll not only last a very long time, but they're also easily swapped.

Even if your battery doesn't reach the 1.6 million mile goal, it's possible that at some point there may even be improvements to battery tech that can be swapped.

I'm sure by 2054 there will still be a market for classic cars and trucks and we'll see people restoring older EVs by swapping batteries for the latest tech, and at a much lower cost. Who knows, by then we'll see EVs running off solid state graphene or even salt water based batteries.

So true! I have even commented on here how I thought it might be worth while to buy a wrecked Lightning to break down for parts. I could easily set up a battery tender on a long range battery that would keep it alive and well for decades. Especially after watching the video above. Charge it to 60%, put a tiny load on it that draws it down to something like 35% over the course of a month or so while keeping its temps around 70F (a tiny a/c unit could do that). The only challenge would be having a spot to cleanly and neatly store the battery and spare parts.

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[Grumpy2]

A common (but unfortunately not universal) naming scheme for NCM is to append numbers related to the stoichiometry of the Ni, Co, and Mn. So one reading of NCM94 can be that it's 90% Ni, 40% Co+Mn, thus 130% of the possible 100%.

Using the "normal" naming scheme, is NCM9 = 90%N + 5%C + 5%M ??

From reading about the instability of high Nickel content batteries, QC must be high by SK On to prevent more problems than we have already had?

 

[davehu]

reading these threads, although very usefull are exhausting my brain! I just follow the simple ABC rule.

 

[Helium]

reading these threads, although very usefull are exhausting my brain! I just follow the simple ABC rule.

oh, well then you should like this slide from Dr. Jeff Dahn (taken from the same video at the beginning of this thread)

:

 

[IdeaOfTheDayCom]

So true! I have even commented on here how I thought it might be worth while to buy a wrecked Lightning to break down for parts. I could easily set up a battery tender on a long range battery that would keep it alive and well for decades. Especially after watching the video above. Charge it to 60%, put a tiny load on it that draws it down to something like 35% over the course of a month or so while keeping its temps around 70F (a tiny a/c unit could do that). The only challenge would be having a spot to cleanly and neatly store the battery and spare parts.

I'm sure there will be entire industries for buying and selling used and next gen EV batteries in the coming years.

This is just the beginning.

 

[Grumpy2]

Just found a photo on the NCM9 battery:
https://blog.upsbatterycenter.com/cobalt-nickel-cathode-performance/#prettyPhoto

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Using the "normal" naming scheme, is NCM9 = 90%N + 5%C + 5%M ??

From reading about the instability of high Nickel content batteries, QC must be high by SK On to prevent more problems than we have already had?

I think it was mentioned earlier that less than 10% would usually have a decimal point:
NCM9.5.5

But that starts to get messy when the nickel content isn't a nice multiple of 10.

 

[TaxmanHog]

oh, well then you should like this slide from Dr. Jeff Dahn (taken from the same video at the beginning of this thread)

:

Stopping to charge my Lightning-ER every 60-80 miles is ludicrous, there are conservation practices for ICE engines too, but they're far from fun or practical.

 

[Grumpy2]

Stopping to charge my Lightning-ER every 60-80 miles is ludicrous,

So true, I am enjoying learning all I can about this new battery technology, but pretty well follow MickeyAO approach, use it and enjoy it.

Many of us will only keep this truck for 5 years or so, and during that time, except for an original QC issue that Ford must handle, the battery health can essentially be ignored.

One thing I have found interesting is those short trips around town that consume 5-10% of the battery actually never effect the batteries health as long as I plug in after each trip. Those small charging cycles really have no effect to the life of the battery.

Another interesting fact was the explanation of how heat contributes to the fatigue of the cathode and thus loss of capacity, while cold has no impact to its health, only in the available energy.

 

[potato]

Stopping to charge my Lightning-ER every 60-80 miles is ludicrous, there are conservation practices for ICE engines too, but they're far from fun or practical.

Yes this all goes out the window on road trips - charge to whatever level you need whenever you need. The point is for daily driving and charging, assuming (as it is for most people) you use much less than the vehicle's total range in your daily driving.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

The real-world point of the results from this testing and others is:

Drive the darn truck, charge the darn truck, drive it some more.

The battery will last longer than the rest of the truck, and you'll have to do some odd things to it to really cause it to fail prematurely.

 

[shutterbug]

What excites me most about EVs is that although most of the the focus is on how long the battery will last, the reality is that they'll not only last a very long time, but they're also easily swapped.

Easily swapped, but maybe not cheaply. There is a thread on MME forum where dealership quoted battery replacement part at $63K
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mach-e-totalled.36011/#post-798920

I realize that particular dealer is a thief, but that's more than the most expensive MME.

 

[Grumpy2]

The battery will last longer than the rest of the truck, and you'll have to do some odd things to it to really cause it to fail prematurely

One interesting thing about "failure": in some of the research papers consider a drop to 80% capacity is a "failure" of a battery....

Ford will only rescue the truck if it drops to 69% in the next 6 or 7 years.

A little precaution seems only prudent.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

One interesting thing about "failure": in some of the research papers consider a drop to 80% capacity is a "failure" of a battery....

Ford will only rescue the truck if it drops to 69% in the next 6 or 7 years.

A little precaution seems only prudent.

A little precaution, sure. But I'm going to use the truck, not baby it, just like I've done with all my other vehicles. For example, I'll charge to 100% whenever I need to and I'll drive below 20% when I need to. Not all the time, but as necessary.

 

[IdeaOfTheDayCom]

Easily swapped, but maybe not cheaply. There is a thread on MME forum where dealership quoted battery replacement part at $63K
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mach-e-totalled.36011/#post-798920

I realize that particular dealer is a thief, but that's more than the most expensive MME.

The dealer clearly is using a price higher than a purchase price of a new Mach-E as a way to ensure discourage the customer from asking for a new battery.

At the moment, dealers hold the cards, but for the industry to move forward, we will eventually reach a period where third party battery manufacturing and installation will be widespread, and I can definitely envision a huge industry for battery exchanges down the road.

Right now, most batteries are under their 100,000 mile warranty, so the potential market for third party swaps is smaller, but as the number of aging and out of warranty batteries increases, third parties will eventually be everywhere.

We're not that far from this right now. There were quite a few startups in the last NY Auto Show demonstrating cars and even converted ICE cars, which means they had to source cookie cutter battery modules directly from the battery makers.

What excites me is that in 10 years, battery technology will advance, and we will likely be able to find companies making faster charging, lighter weight batteries with more range that can be swapped in a few hours.

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