Safety Issue Pro Power?

[leonbell]

I haven't seen this mentioned, so forgive me if this has been discussed.
I have been using my Pro Power via 240v output from truck bed to run power to a boathouse while we are doing construction on the house (and as a result power to the boathouse has been cut completely from the mains). The electrician removed the grounding in the boathouse so that the truck could power the circuits.
Since the output from truck is "generator bonded neutral' it would not work until we removed the grounding.
Works great.
But... I noticed yesterday that while standing on wet ground with bare feet that there was a distinct tingle when I touched the rear bed of the truck.
That can't be good.
I assume that I need to have the dealer see if there is a bad connection somewhere.

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[Newton]

You need to stop all work and call your local electrical inspector - the number will be on the permit. This is extra dangerous because you mentioned ”boathouse”, so you are at extreme risk of electrocuting swimmers.

I assume that you mean that the electrician removed the neutral to ground bond in the boathouse rather than just disconnecting the ground wire. The latter would be completely unacceptable, the former gets tricky in a marine environment with what you are trying to do. I would not be surprised if you have melted a few props through electrolysis.

 

[leonbell]

Thanks. I will check all of that. I do know that the electricians didn't seem to fully grasp the concept of a neutral bonded generator. Should have been my first clue.

 

[Danface]

Sounds like YOU where somewhat of a grounding rod and (obviously) that's very dangerous! A human only need to conduct between .1 and .2 amps to cause death.

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

 

[chl]

Yea, your electrician did it all wrong. Removing the ground is a very very dangerous thing!

OSHA:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECBcQAw&usg=AOvVaw01IkyK90448y9SeRrZiwKf

Never attach a portable generator (your Lightning is essentially that) directly to the electrical system of a structure (home, office or trailer) unless the generator has a properly installed open-transition transfer switch.

If a portable generator is providing electric power to a structure by connection via a transfer switch to a structure (home, office, shop, trailer, or similar) it must be connected to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground rod.

Do not connect a generator to a structure unless the generator has a properly installed transfer switch.

Grounding Requirements for Portable and Vehicle-mounted Generators
Under the following conditions, OSHA directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) that the
frame of a portable generator need not be grounded (connected to earth) and that the
frame may serve as the ground (in place of the earth):

• The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator and/or cord and
plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and

• The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal
combustion engine, and the generator’s housing) are bonded to the generator
frame, and the equipment grounding conductor terminals (of the power receptacles
that are a part of [mounted on] the generator) are bonded to the generator frame,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B).

Thus, rather than connect to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground
rod, the generator’s frame replaces the grounding electrode.

If these conditions do not exist, then a grounding electrode, such as a ground rod,
is required.

If the portable generator is providing electric power to a structure by connection via a
transfer switch to a structure (home, office, shop, trailer, or similar) it must be connected
to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground rod. The transfer switch must
be approved for the use and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation
instructions by a qualified electrician.

Proving a ground rod to attach the Lightning to AND attaching the ground to the home ground would be the safest thing, although the house ground is generally enough but disconnecting the ground is a big no-no. Also...

You need a transfer switch that will switch the neutrals of all the circuits you are powering so they are NOT grounded at the house breaker panel - otherwise the GFCI in the truck will trip.

When there is a long distance between the source (truck or generator) and the load (house panel) it is safest to provide a ground rod (or two) at both ends...like when you wire a subpanel in an outbuilding for example.

Every electrician does not know everything, but all this stuff can be looked up in the codes on line.

 

[leonbell]

Thank you for that.
i will go over with electrician.
Quite possibly someone other than original as they should know that I think
So.
could the pro power system be in compliance and still allow for the slight shock from the truck?
I would have hoped that pro power breaker would have tripped ?

 

[Danface]

Yea, your electrician did it all wrong. Removing the ground is a very very dangerous thing!

OSHA:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECBcQAw&usg=AOvVaw01IkyK90448y9SeRrZiwKf

Never attach a portable generator (your Lightning is essentially that) directly to the electrical system of a structure (home, office or trailer) unless the generator has a properly installed open-transition transfer switch.

If a portable generator is providing electric power to a structure by connection via a transfer switch to a structure (home, office, shop, trailer, or similar) it must be connected to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground rod.

Do not connect a generator to a structure unless the generator has a properly installed transfer switch.

Grounding Requirements for Portable and Vehicle-mounted Generators
Under the following conditions, OSHA directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) that the
frame of a portable generator need not be grounded (connected to earth) and that the
frame may serve as the ground (in place of the earth):

• The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator and/or cord and
plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and

• The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal
combustion engine, and the generator’s housing) are bonded to the generator
frame, and the equipment grounding conductor terminals (of the power receptacles
that are a part of [mounted on] the generator) are bonded to the generator frame,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B).

Thus, rather than connect to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground
rod, the generator’s frame replaces the grounding electrode.

If these conditions do not exist, then a grounding electrode, such as a ground rod,
is required.

If the portable generator is providing electric power to a structure by connection via a
transfer switch to a structure (home, office, shop, trailer, or similar) it must be connected
to a grounding electrode system, such as a driven ground rod. The transfer switch must
be approved for the use and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation
instructions by a qualified electrician.

Proving a ground rod to attach the Lightning to AND attaching the ground to the home ground would be the safest thing, although the house ground is generally enough but disconnecting the ground is a big no-no. Also...

You need a transfer switch that will switch the neutrals of all the circuits you are powering so they are NOT grounded at the house breaker panel - otherwise the GFCI in the truck will trip.

When there is a long distance between the source (truck or generator) and the load (house panel) it is safest to provide a ground rod (or two) at both ends...like when you wire a subpanel in an outbuilding for example.

Every electrician does not know everything, but all this stuff can be looked up in the codes on line.

I understand why the ground can't be connected to the house ground, the truck's GFCI will sense the neutral current going to ground and see it as a ground fault. So, inserting dump question here, is it OK to do the following:

Bond the ground wire coming from the main panel to the generator plug (in my garage)
Connect the ground terminal on the plug coming the truck to a separate grounding rod, thereby isolating the ground???

I know my electrician will do the right thing AND I do have a Reliance Transfer Switch Kit that I could use but I'm asking because I'd prefer to use a Generator Interlock Kit on the panel that will prevent the 30 amp breaker from being switch on when the main is on and vice versa then just pick the circuits to control

 

[Newton]

There are common misconceptions about breakers. They only protect the wires from carrying to high of an amperage and melting the insulation. They do not protect you from wires overheating from resistance either because of aged wiring or loose connections. They definitely do not protect you from ground faults and shocks, that is the job for a ground fault interrupter (GFCI) or Residual Current Device (RCD).

I do not know why the GFCI on the Lightning is not tripping but there are a few possibilities. It is a last chance safety device and won’t save you in all cases. Marine environment are especially tricky, after a few years corrosion gets inside of the boxes and really weird things can happen. After a few years my dad’s boat would pump the head every time that you hit the horn (which was rarely except in fog) and we never did figure it out. It is possible that a breaker that you think is “off” is still allowing some current through.

 

[Newton]

Messing around with the ground really isn’t the solution, because the truck is sensing the difference between hot and neutral, not neutral and ground. Good site on GFCIs. I know that people cut the ground and it works, but I don’t think that it works for good reasons (hence the OP.)

The ground must be connected to the house ground, and if you have current to ground that is a bad thing. The issue is that in North American wiring standards the neutral and ground are bonded at the main panel, and the main panel only. Otherwise you create the possibility of two return paths for 120V power (a near neutral and a distant neutral both grounded in different places) and you don’t want to be between that.

The return path on the house panel is what the truck is sensing, there is a difference between the truck’s hot and neutral, normally any current going out is balanced by the current being returned from the circuit.

I’m not sure what you mean by “bond the ground wire at the plug”, if you mean bond ground to neutral you now have three return paths and the truck will still trip.

Neutral switching transfer switches are a good thing, having circuits individually backed up is somewhat of an advantage when you have a relatively limited amount of power to deal with. (Why not 50A, Ford?) I realized this after I installed mine and had a power outage, I didn’t have to go and turn off switches at the breaker panel. Plug her in, turn on the Pro Power, and hit the switch. Done.

It also meant that when the utility power came back on, the non-backed up circuits became live without any action on my part, I knew utility power was back when the heat pump fired up.

 

[Maquis]

The way it is connected, the voltage between the truck chassis and the building grounding electrode will be equal to the voltage drop on the neutral wire between the truck and the panel.

You can do this safely by restoring the ground conductor to the truck and removing the neutral to ground bonding connection in the panel.

ETA - you should change the title of this thread. There is nothing unsafe about ProPower. You are just using it in an unsafe manner!

 

[Madasahatter1138]

ETA - you should change the title of this thread. There is nothing unsafe about ProPower. You are just using it in an unsafe manner!

Seconded!

 

[Amps]

ETA - you should change the title of this thread. There is nothing unsafe about ProPower. You are just using it in an unsafe manner!

Ditto. Removes ground, thinks truck is unsafe.

 

[Henry Ford]

The boathouse is leaking current because...reasons. Current leak was detected by OP when he completed the circuit with his body. Truck GFCI never fixed the problem due to non-code compliant mod to the boathouse panel. Did I get this right?

I discovered an ungrounded PA amp when I touched my lip on the metal part of a mic plugged into it while also touching my guitar strings. Same principal, I think.

 

[leonbell]

Ditto. Removes ground, thinks truck is unsafe.

FWIW: The electricians have not been paid yet.
At least I have that.

My request of them was to allow me to back feed from the 240v from truck to the boathouse just as if I was back feeding into any other house as a back up generator.

From all of the excellent and informative (thank you all) responses I have received it's pretty clear they did not use the right method.

I may need to shop some other electricians. I can now share the comments from this forum with them for helpful advice.
I'm certainly not pretending to understand enough to do this on my own.

I suspected they may not have set it up correctly, but I was still a little surprised that when there was clearly a little current available to run from truck frame to ground that the truck GFI didn't trip.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

I agree with others who have suggested that the electrician is an idiot and instead of disconnecting the ground /neutral Bond, he just completely disconnected the ground. I could give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he thought he was disconnecting the bond and maybe just did not understand the way that boathouse was wired. Whether it was a good faith mistake or he's just an idiot, that is virtually certain to be what is going on.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that when he rewires this correctly so that the boathouse ground is disconnected from the house ground and only connected to the truck's ground, the truck's GFCI is going to trip immediately as soon as you plug that thing in. All that current that you felt moving through your body is instead going to move through the grounding conductor to the truck and it's going to trip. As it should.

I would take a long hard look at what equipment you have hooked up in that boathouse. Something has a probably rather high resistance fault to ground, either through faulty equipment or water or something.

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