Estimating the number of pouch cells in battery modules, a conversation with ChatGPT

[TaxmanHog]

What does 5p8s mean for smaller module #9?

5 cells in parallel, then strung in series by 8 units, is how I read it, but I'm not certain about that or how it computes to the values I assumed from diagnostic read out.

Cell voltage of ~4.035 v seen in the graphics above, times 96 cells in series comes to around 387.36 volts, we refer to our packs as being 400 volt packs, but if there are actually 5 parallels, then it means there are 480 pouches in total. Or could it be the 5p (parallel) are within the one pouch, nested together then vacuum sealed ?

I've probably got this wrong, looking for clarification from Mickey.

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[TaxmanHog]

End result of whatever the architecture, there was an assembly error with a substantial number of components, Ford & SK identified the problem, corrected the manufacturing process and targeted the suspected parts to a series of Lightnings manufactured and sold.

The defective parts have reared their ugly heads over time, the worst condition units failing early and more marginal units coming along in dribs & drabs up to now.

 

[GoodSam]

Cell voltage of ~4.035 v seen in the graphics above, times 96 cells in series comes to around 387.36 volts, we refer to our packs as being 400 volt packs, but if there are actually 5 parallels, then it means there are 480 pouches in total. Or could it be the 5p (parallel) are within the one pouch, nested together then vacuum sealed ?
I've probably got this wrong, looking for clarification from Mickey.

Yeah, then only 63 cells for the SR battery would make for a lower Voltage, say 250, which does not make sense. I am surprised that no one has figured these modules and their cells out for an accessible clear explanation for layfolk like me. ChatGPT is not scraping the internet thoroughly enough!

 

[bmwhitetx]

Strange that module #9 is smaller instead of matching, causing a different line of manufacturing to be needed, meaning extra costs;

Munro explains module 9 is smaller because the space is smaller. Ford wanted that extra 11 kWh so they put in a smaller module.

 

[GoodSam]

this old post by @Ford Senior Master says SR has 9 small modules, while ER has 8 large and 1 small!
battery-pack-removal-guide-how-to-remove-your-f-150-lightning-battery-pack
I am confused where I got the idea that the SR only has 6 modules, 5 large, 1 small.

And this SR owner says the same, with @MickeyAO reply following:
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-buy-a-hvb-battery-from-you.17746/post-363503
"Housing is the same. Biggest difference is that the extended range has a 5P configuration versus the standard range 4P. Both have a 96(?)S configuration. "

GoodSam Adding: So it seems SR/ER both have 9 modules. SR 9 small modules, & ER have 8 larger modules and 1 small module. It seems the SR has 4 pouches in parallel per cell, while the ER has 5 pouches in parallel per cell, which would account for the kW-hr storage difference of SR gross 110kWh and ER gross of 141kWh. 110 is 78% of 141 or 4/5ths...4 vs 5 cells in parallel.

If a ER cell has 370Ah, then the SR cell would be only 80% of that, 296Ah. 370Ah * 4V * 96 = 142kWh, close to the gross of 141kWh for an ER; 296Ah * 4V * 96 = 113kWh, close to the 110kWh gross for an SR battery pack.

 

[TaxmanHog]

4p has 80% of the energy capacity vs 5p pack.

All have 96 cell groups of (4p or 5p)

Voltage of a cell grouped by 4p or 5p will be the same ~4.xx volts.

 

[Grumpy2]

I have struggled for hours on this issue in the past, and I am so glad GoodSam started this conversation. I still don't know the answer to his question and that bugs me. I just have a desire to know how this truck works, how the battery functions, as I understood how my old F150 screw functioned.

We have a SR Lightning. I believe both the SR and the ER Lightning has one small single battery module that has a 5P8S configuration and rated to have 11.95 kWh. In the small module with the 8 cells in series would produce about 29 volts average (8 x 3.6v/cell) and perhaps 32 volts maximum. Together the 5 strings produce about 12 kWh maximum, so each string yields 2.4 kWh max., so each of the 8 cells must produce about 300 Wh max?

I believe the larger module has a 5P11S configuration and rated to have 16.44 kWh. If the large module with 11 cells in series would produce about 40 volts average (11 x 3.6v/cell) and perhaps 45 volts maximum. Together the 5 strings could produce 16.44 kWh maximum, so each string yields 3.2 kWh max., and each of the 11 cells might produce about 290-300 Wh max?

For our standard range battery I believe it has 9 modules: one small pack and eight large packs yielding at total of about 98 kWh (useable) and 107 kWh (maximum)?
The extended range battery I believe also has 9 modules; one small pack and eight large packs yielding a total of 131 kWg (useable) and 142 kWh max.

The amperage capacity of all of the modules in our pack is 107.6 kWh, so 107,600 wh/300 wh/cell (nominal) = 359 cells in parallel strings of 8 cells each?

The amperage capacity of the ER battery 142,000wh/300 wh/cell = 473 cells in parallel strings of 8 cells each?

Can this be the layout? Seems impossible to have this different number of cells in the same size 9 modules. What is the Answer?

 

[GoodSam]

We have a SR Lightning. I believe both the SR and the ER Lightning has one small single battery module that has a 5P8S configuration

See my #20 above...SR has 9 small modules, made of 8 cells (4 pouch cells in parallel to make one measurable) 72 cells; & ER have 1 small modules of 8 cells (but 5 pouch cells in parallel to make one measurable) plus 8 large modules of 11 cells (5 pouch cells in parallel to make one measurable) 96 cells.

Sheese, that cannot be right, if b Both SR&ER have 96 "cells" * 4.X Vdc ~400V. So you may be right about the SR having 1 small with 8 cells and 8 large with 11 cells, but with the 4p, 4 pouches in parallel inside. Or can they stuff 11 cells with 4 pouches each in a small module, if the @Ford Senior Master is correct? SR's have a higher payload rating for the same equipment which should be due to the fewer cell pouches or smaller module container sizes?

Need to see a SR battery pack module setup!

 

[TaxmanHog]

Need to see a SR battery pack module setup!

yup

 

[MickeyAO]

xS increased voltage xP increases capacity. A smaller module, as long as it has the same P configuration is not a problem, as it is increasing the voltage.

 

[GoodSam]

Back in August 2022, @Ford Senior Master stated the SR had 9 * 40 cell modules and the ER had 1 * 40 cell and 8 * 56 cell modules.
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-150-lightning-battery-pack.11859/post-248939

I wonder if this is still correct? for an SR, I would think the pouches would cause modules to contain multiples of 4 (like 32, 36, 40, 44), and for an ER, a module would have multiples of 5 (like 40, 45, 50, 55).

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