Lithium EV vs Up coming Solid State EV

[Brian Head Yankee]

As someone that's been following EVs for about 10 years, and has owned 2.5 (one a PHEV so that's the 0.5) of them, the next big thing is always "Just right around the corner!"

10 years ago fuel cells were "the next big thing" and were supposedly "about 24 months away from commercial production," and every year it's some new startup that is "ready to scale" their magical new battery tech that weighs 420gr, holds 6000kWhr and costs less than a Starbucks coffee.

I hate to sound jaded, but what can be done in a lab by a startup is often decades away from commercial scale, and has about a 1 in 1000 chance of making it there at a reasonable price point. Remember that startups constantly have to get cash infusions, so they are always "Just a few million of investment $ away" from that big breakthough.

On the positive side of the ledger, there's now so much interest and investment that we should see incremental improvements, but I'm still skeptical anytime a company claims that they have "the answer" and it's only 24 months and another $50M funding round away.

Agree 100%. Fuel cells and CNG were hot to trot 10 years ago. Bio diesel emulsified with water, propane powered cars, etc. It goes on and on. The pouch style battery cells from SK are a step forward on density. Anything with a mountain of D cell style panansonic cells is "old" technology now.

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[beatle]

Pouch cells are nothing new though and have always been more dense than a cylindrical cell of equal makeup. It's just how they fit together. Pouch cells are nice for packaging since there are so few voids within the pack,, but they have tradeoffs vs. cylindrical cells in that they are less stable and may not have the lifespan of an equivalent cylindrical cell. The lack of voids also limits cooling capability which is key to battery lifespan. Ask Nissan how important cooling is to the battery.

Tesla uses cylindrical cells exclusively. The Leaf (an EV that predates the Model S) used pouch cells and still does. I am hoping the pouch cells used in the F150 are robust enough along with a good BMS and cooling system to keep them healthy for the equivalent life of a typical ICE vehicle. Hopefully Ford didn't just choose them because the truck simply demands the absolute highest capacity and the packaging of cylindrical cells in the available space would have left the truck with less range than the buying public demands. The Hummer (and presumably other GM vehicles) will also use pouch cells BTW.

 

[MickeyAO]

I still haven't found a startup willing to submit 60 SSB samples for our standardized testing, but we just started a grid-level fuel cell testing project and I have a light-duty (normal consumer vehicle) fuel cell vehicle inbound in a week or so for testing.

 

[MickeyAO]

Pouch cells are nothing new though and have always been more dense than a cylindrical cell of equal makeup. It's just how they fit together. Pouch cells are nice for packaging since there are so few voids within the pack,, but they have tradeoffs vs. cylindrical cells in that they are less stable and may not have the lifespan of an equivalent cylindrical cell. The lack of voids also limits cooling capability which is key to battery lifespan. Ask Nissan how important cooling is to the battery.

Tesla uses cylindrical cells exclusively. The Leaf (an EV that predates the Model S) used pouch cells and still does. I am hoping the pouch cells used in the F150 are robust enough along with a good BMS and cooling system to keep them healthy for the equivalent life of a typical ICE vehicle. Hopefully, Ford didn't just choose them because the truck simply demands the absolute highest capacity and the packaging of cylindrical cells in the available space would have left the truck with less range than the buying public demands. The Hummer (and presumably other GM vehicles) will also use pouch cells BTW.

The difference in pouch or cylindrical (and you forgot prismatic) is in what you need to add in packaging. It has nothing to do with which is more stable...that is where the chemistry of the cell comes in. An NCA will be by default more energetic than an LMO (therefore more unstable) but has nothing to do with being a pouch or cylindrical (or prismatic). A pouch cell will require more packaging to provide the structure of the module (and pack).

The only reason pouch is considered 'more dense' is due to the Wh/g of the cell, but that gets made up in the structure of the pack.

Don't get me started on the Leaf with their 'air cooled' design

 

[beatle]

The difference in pouch or cylindrical (and you forgot prismatic) is in what you need to add in packaging. It has nothing to do with which is more stable...that is where the chemistry of the cell comes in. An NCA will be by default more energetic than an LMO (therefore more unstable) but has nothing to do with being a pouch or cylindrical (or prismatic). A pouch cell will require more packaging to provide the structure of the module (and pack).

The only reason pouch is considered 'more dense' is due to the Wh/g of the cell, but that gets made up in the structure of the pack.

Don't get me started on the Leaf with their 'air cooled' design

Was using stability to refer to the packaging inherent to the cell itself. A cylindrical cell has a built in case, while the pouch requires a separate one.

I didn't think prismatic cells were in use in EVs, though I think Toyota is planning on making a go of it.

 

[MickeyAO]

BMW uses Samsung prismatic cells. Just got two of those modules in today that we will take down to the cell level sometime next week.

 

[Rocky Wabbit]

Maybe we can sell 1000's of Cat Backhoes to Indonesia and get back 100,000's tons of Nickle to make long range batteries. Hope so. Ranges of over 550 miles need to become average ranges is my thoughts ! Not degrading what's happening now its just seems to make sense to me ! If you can't drive 12 hours or so on a needful day without sitting for hours charging you just can't go anywhere meaningful in my memory of needs to drive in a day. Daily Driver is my opinion, Yea a great daily driver too !

 

[Rocky Wabbit]

Regen also gives added range for the battery in a smooth way. My experience is it may add an hour to the battery life and moderate usages, ie, slow down to 55 mph.

 

[Sdctcher]

I may be wrong but I believe the 2022 Ford Lightning will be manufactured with the SKI NCM9 Lithium-ion (90%Nickel/5% Cobalt/5% Manganese) battery pack from their new factory in Georgia.
I do not believe that this is the same power pack used in the prototype. It might explain why miles per charge estimates are all over the map along with other things like weight, weather, and driver input. I have not seen much deep discussion here about what is in both rated packs (and also the sealed motor and gear assemblies on each axle).

 

[MickeyAO]

I may be wrong, but I believe the 2022 Ford Lightning will be manufactured with the SKI NCM9 Lithium-ion (90%Nickel/5% Cobalt/5% Manganese) battery pack from their new factory in Georgia.
I do not believe that this is the same power pack used in the prototype. It might explain why miles per charge estimates are all over the map along with other things like weight, weather, and driver input. I have not seen much deep discussion here about what is in both rated packs (and also the sealed motor and gear assemblies on each axle).

It would be interesting if it really were a 9 1/2 1/2 chemistry, as I have not seen that in production yet but heard rumors of it coming. Several OEMs have switched to an 811 (and I will be testing another one of them within the month)... I can't wait to see it.

 

[Sdctcher]

Thanks
See topelectricsuv.com
And
See autoevolution.com

 

[TN F-150]

I've noticed that on the Lightning Technical Specifications, that there is an asterisk * next to the Charge Time and Range specs. Below which there is an Exception for the Platinum Trim. However the nature of the exception isn't explained.

This has got me wondering whether the Platinum Trim has a different battery chemistry, a different software management system or some other reason for the exception.

Marques Brownlee's review of his Platinum Trim Lightning alluded to an extended range beyond that of Ford's targeted range, which Ford has explained as EPA testing with a 1,000 lb. payload. Another indicator of the model's differences.

Beyond a possible battery chemistry difference than the rest of the Lightning trim's, there may be another possible explanation:

The Platinum Trim appears to be the only model where the Extended Range Battery, the 80A charging system, the 9.6 kW Pro Power Onboard and the Max Trailer Towing Package are standard Equipment. The Max Trailer package consisting of, in part, an enhanced cooling system for the batteries and motors.

My question to the forum experts more learned than myself (and that is most of you) is:

Is it possible that the the combination of an enhanced cooling system and possible other battery software management capabilities brought about by other hardware choices might increase the Lightning's range?

Pete

 

[beatle]

I'm guessing it's the wheels on the Platinum that affect the "miles per hour" as the truck may get more or less range with the larger wheels on the Platinum (probably less). The charge rates and batteries would be the same between the trims. The Platinum may also be slightly heavier which further penalizes its range.

The charging specs allow you to estimate the capacity of the batteries, however:

32A * 240v = 7,680 watts
7,680 watts * 14 hours = 107,520 watt hours or 107.52kwh for the standard battery
7,680 watts * 19 hours = 145,920 watt hours or 145.92kwh for the extended battery

Note that Ford specifies these charge times for 15-100% or about 85% capacity, but AC charging is not 100% efficient. I get around 84% efficiency out of the charger on my Model S when charging at 9.6kw. Ford could be better or worse, but it's a data point. Charging from 0-100% at 85% efficiency is like charging from 15-100 at 100% efficiency. I think that math checks out.

 

[TN F-150]

Is it possible that the efficiency of the batteries can be influenced for the better by the ability to control their temperature, and if so, would adding additional cooling capacity hardware via the Max Towing package give the battery management software additional tools to improve efficiency and range?

 

[beatle]

It's true that batteries' internal resistance changes at different temperatures, but to a point, a warmer battery will have less resistance and charge "easier" than a cold battery. Also, the additional cooling on the towing package wouldn't be needed to cool a battery. If the stock cooling system can't cool a charging battery adequately, it will be completely overwhelmed by the truck driving down the road. The BMS would be the same between the trucks.

On a side note, I'm not even sure what the max towing package includes on the Lightning over the tow tech package.

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