F-150 Lightning EV Tax Credits & Rebates - Discussions & Predictions

[rtw819]

I was specifically looking for valid dates, but got lost in there(on which section was which).

The way I read it..the credit would be valid for vehicles purchased after Dec 31, 2021 (i.e. next year) but the point of sale part isn't valid until Jan 1, 2023.

I didn't see it that way, but I didn't read all 1684 pages. Why would they push the point-of-sale credit out a full year and expect people to have that much liability? Seems counterintuitive, but this is the government we're talking about here. LOL. It's all suspect until the actual passage of the legislation as written anyway.

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[rtw819]

I was given an unsupported rumor from someone working in the auto industry today about all of this. ... SNIP ...

• Apparently Ford is scrambling to make sure the Lariat is well within whatever EV credits congress passes. They want to make sure they don't end up locking customers into a price only to have them not able to get the EV credit and/or not being able to take a chunk of it as profit. The internal pricing is already mostly sorted out but they haven't decided which options and packages will be standard and at what price.

• Battery efficiency is much better than EPA targets because of fears over range while under load. There was concern at Ford that there would be backlash for low range while the truck is carrying loads for contractors. Especially in cold weather.

• Most of the Ford marketing teams are focused on "proving" the Lightning works to regular F-150 buyers with combustion engines. There is little interest to market to people who want to buy EVs in this generation of the lightning. They expect the scarcity of the product will drive demand for consumer buyers who want a "Different" F-150. This was backed by data collected from raptor sales.

Just my $.02, but if I had to venture a guess, I would tend to believe these 3 rumors out of the list. Thanks for sharing!

 

[personalt]

Cry me a river. You know what is more offensive? Giving someone who makes $100k a HUGE credit while giving someone who makes $50k much, much less of a credit for doing the exact same thing.

I live in NYS, I get it.

But IF the whole point is to get regular people in EVs.....there is a huge swath of this country that comes no where near $12.5 liability and those people would lose out. Again this only matters IF the credit were non-refundable, every indication I've seen is that it WILL BE refundable so the full credit will be available to everyone...not just those making over $100k.

in the case of this truck I don't disagree with you, the best thing for this to be would be that the rebate/credit is done at the point of sale. as a whole I think people who live in high cost States get ripped off on tax policies that set income limits, but this is a truck forum not a tax forum

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

"Cry me a river. You know what is more offensive? Giving someone who makes $100k a HUGE credit while giving someone who makes $50k much, much less of a credit for doing the exact same thing."


A person who makes $50,000 a year has no business spending a year's salary on a vehicle.

 

[Sdctcher]

Getting back to the thread discussion…….

Looks like the lobbyists are now fighting over exact language House vs Senate.

$80,000 limit all vehicles vs Cars vs $74,000 Truck

Ford is also figuring how to price the Lariat and options to get MSRP into either $74K-$80k

(MSRP = Base + Options + Destination + ADM)

The next week will be critical to who can push harder and slip their language into the final, then Ford can give us the news.

 

[greenne]

"Cry me a river. You know what is more offensive? Giving someone who makes $100k a HUGE credit while giving someone who makes $50k much, much less of a credit for doing the exact same thing."


A person who makes $50,000 a year has no business spending a year's salary on a vehicle.

So you get to judge what a person should or should not spend their money on?

Nice.

Also....just because a person has "money" doesn't mean its taxable....certain pensions, roth IRA, veterans benefits, etc.

What if a person only makes $50k but they only "buy" a new vehicle every 10-15yrs and they have saved up?

I'm not saying "rich" people should not be able to take the credit(thats a whole other discussion)....but that everyone should be able to take full advantage.

 

[Sdctcher]

The Build Back Better (BBB) Plan (Framework) is in place. If this were "Sausage-Making", the skin is done and the cost of the sausage has been determined, but not the innards.

Now all the players, Senators, Congressmen, Lobbyists, Assorted Staff, are trying to massage the particulars and hidden language. This is like adding the spices into the casing.

If you want to read the most current published particular, then read about pages 1250... of

OCTOBER 28, 2021
RULES COMMITTEE PRINT 117–17
TEXT OF H.R. 5376, BUILD BACK BETTER ACT

But that is just the House. The final language will be manipulated to what the Senators want:

Questions to be Answered:

How Union Friendly will the Senators be?

How powerful are the Union vs Auto Lobbies?

Will the final cost be closer to $31.5 B or $15.5 B?

Will they want to simplify and just set up 1 MSRP Cap ($80,000 vs $74,000) rather than $55,000 - $74,000 Tiers? Remember, the IRS has to administer this mess so simple will be easier.

Will the Tax Credit (at least the first year) be fully-refundable or only to the limit of actual taxes owed?

Stay Tuned!

 

[Sdctcher]

And do not forget External last minute political Lobbying.

At the G-20, both Canada and Mexico have threatened Biden to take International action through Anti-Tariff language against the US at the WTO if the Union mandates survive in the BBB. This pressure will carry over to the COPS (Climate) Summit.

So Biden may throw the Unions under the bus in exchange for higher and simpler MSRP Limits.

 

[vandy1981]

Will the Tax Credit (at least the first year) be fully-refundable or only to the limit of actual taxes owed?

the best thing for this to be would be that the rebate/credit is done at the point of sale.

Why would they push the point-of-sale credit out a full year and expect people to have that much liability?

It's written as a refundable tax credit so your tax liability does not matter. The current tax credit is non-refundable. I'm assuming that there is some infrastructure and DOE rule making that would need to be established for point-of-sale credits that would take some time. I would be surprised to find a dealer that would be willing to take a $12,500 flyer on Jan 1, 2022 without some assurance about how they'll be refunded.

A person who makes $50,000 a year has no business spending a year's salary on a vehicle.

The point is that the credit would be available even on electric vehicles with low MSRPs regardless of tax liability, not that people would be purchasing vehicles beyond their means.

I'm not going to try to parse the sentiment behind that "no business" statement since it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[greenne]

The Build Back Better (BBB) Plan (Framework) is in place. If this were "Sausage-Making", the skin is done and the cost of the sausage has been determined, but not the innards.

Now all the players, Senators, Congressmen, Lobbyists, Assorted Staff, are trying to massage the particulars and hidden language. This is like adding the spices into the casing.

If you want to read the most current published particular, then read about pages 1250... of

OCTOBER 28, 2021
RULES COMMITTEE PRINT 117–17
TEXT OF H.R. 5376, BUILD BACK BETTER ACT

But that is just the House. The final language will be manipulated to what the Senators want:

Questions to be Answered:

How Union Friendly will the Senators be?

How powerful are the Union vs Auto Lobbies?

Will the final cost be closer to $31.5 B or $15.5 B?

Will they want to simplify and just set up 1 MSRP Cap ($80,000 vs $74,000) rather than $55,000 - $74,000 Tiers? Remember, the IRS has to administer this mess so simple will be easier.

Will the Tax Credit (at least the first year) be fully-refundable or only to the limit of actual taxes owed?

Stay Tuned!

In this particular case, I am HOPING all the banter back and forth was hammered out the last few weeks and there are NO more surprises.

I get the impression that everyone is on board(in both the Senate and House) with the House version of the bill(which is why Biden announced this as the framework)..with the possible exception of Sinema and Manchin. I THINK that what was happening last week as some big things were taken out(paid family leave for example).

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Senate will produce a new bill nor make any big changes to the House version. I guess some small details could be changed..but I was kinda hoping that had already occurred.

The only big concern I see is Manchin going thru "one final time" and deciding he doesn't like the EV provisions.

I get the feeling everyone else can live with this version and are ready to move on.

Just my .02c.

 

[shocker]

The only big concern I see is Manchin going thru "one final time" and deciding he doesn't like the EV provisions.
Just my .02c.

More EVs = more electrical demand = more coal burned for a longer time into the future. Actually a Win for Manchin and WV.

 

[Sgt Beavis]

The only big concern I see is Manchin going thru "one final time" and deciding he doesn't like the EV provisions.

I get the feeling everyone else can live with this version and are ready to move on.

Just my .02c.

My understanding is that Manchin is no longer the problem. He got most of what he wanted. The overall bill is smaller and his coal investments are protected. Despite his self serving actions, he comes out of this looking really good with his constituency. It’s Sinema that everyone should be concerned with. She’s totally unpredictable.

Another potential problem is the progressive wing of the House Democrats. They are threatening to kill the main infrastructure bill if they don’t get the ALL the social programs they wanted. They could be just posturing at this point. IMO this bill is actually a MASSIVE win for them. It advances their agenda A LOT. Just not as much as they would have liked. If they hold up either bill, they will be vilified, and rightfully so IMO.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

The price caps will not be good for dealers or Ford but I like the cap. It will somewhat hold prices down on behalf of the consumer.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

The bill is not smaller so don’t be fooled. The CBO, if given a chance, will score these two bills over $5T.

 

[greenne]

The price caps will not be good for dealers or Ford but I like the cap. It will somewhat hold prices down on behalf of the consumer.

Keep in mind the caps are based on MSRP...not selling price. Still good chance dealers will try to jack up the ADM...

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