F-150 Lightning EV Tax Credits & Rebates - Discussions & Predictions

[greenne]

My understanding is that Manchin is no longer the problem. He got most of what he wanted. The overall bill is smaller and his coal investments are protected. Despite his self serving actions, he comes out of this looking really good with his constituency. It’s Sinema that everyone should be concerned with. She’s totally unpredictable.

Another potential problem is the progressive wing of the House Democrats. They are threatening to kill the main infrastructure bill if they don’t get the ALL the social programs they wanted. They could be just posturing at this point. IMO this bill is actually a MASSIVE win for them. It advances their agenda A LOT. Just not as much as they would have liked. If they hold up either bill, they will be vilified, and rightfully so IMO.

I think they will move on this next week or lose all momentum.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/579202-democrats-seek-tweaks-to-175t-framework?amp

Small tweaks possible but I don't think any big changes.

Sponsored

 

[Sdctcher]

Keep in mind the caps are based on MSRP...not selling price. Still good chance dealers will try to jack up the ADM...

What Does MSRP Include?

A car's MSRP includes the base price for its particular trim level, as well as the prices of any options, packages, or extras it's equipped with. Features are typically itemized and listed out, noting whether they're included or additional cost. Standard factory warranty and service coverage is included in that price. MSRP does not include any accessories or extended service programs sold by the dealer, nor does it usually include sales or incentives. Various fees and taxes are also not part of the MSRP—it pertains primarily to the specific vehicle.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/what-is-msrp-sticker-price-meaning/

 

[vandy1981]

Keep in mind the caps are based on MSRP...not selling price. Still good chance dealers will try to jack up the ADM...

I think point-of-sale is a net positive, but I think it will also allow the dishonest dealers to play more games with ADM and haggling. They dealers will probably obfuscate by making it seem like the $12,500 discount off of "market rate" is coming out of the their pocket. They may not even tell the customer about the credit they're getting if they're especially devious. I'd feel pretty great about getting $5000 off MSRP for my new Bolt if I didn't know that the dealer would be able to pocket $7500 of EV credit in the deal.

The salesmen either didn't know (or care) about the credit when I bought my last 2 EVs in 2014 and 2019. The haggling was annoying enough at that point--I can't imagine adding the credit into the mix...

 

[Losi]

Keep in mind the caps are based on MSRP...not selling price. Still good chance dealers will try to jack up the ADM...

I sat in a Lariat for the first time the other day and couldn’t believe how comfortable and spacious it was. It’s really a beautiful machine. I wasn’t too thrilled about the $4K ‘market adjustment’, however (which might be relatively low in this market). ADM on
the Lightning is going to be otherworldly.

 

[jefro]

MSRP is the number you pick when you are on a game show.

 

[astricklin]

"Cry me a river. You know what is more offensive? Giving someone who makes $100k a HUGE credit while giving someone who makes $50k much, much less of a credit for doing the exact same thing."


A person who makes $50,000 a year has no business spending a year's salary on a vehicle.

Someone could most certainly buy a car that is equal to their yearly salary. You don't know their financial situation. Maybe they own a home outright and are single and have been saving for years to buy their next vehicle.

 

[StephanWolf]

So you get to judge what a person should or should not spend their money on?

Nice.

Also....just because a person has "money" doesn't mean its taxable....certain pensions, roth IRA, veterans benefits, etc.

What if a person only makes $50k but they only "buy" a new vehicle every 10-15yrs and they have saved up?

I'm not saying "rich" people should not be able to take the credit(thats a whole other discussion)....but that everyone should be able to take full advantage.

So you get to judge what opinion a person should or should not have?
Nice.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

I wonder if Greene would be ok with a variable rebate based on how much you put IN. Not likely. He loves the Robinhood system - take from the rich and give to the poor.

You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. I do know for certain that you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[metroshot]

I think point-of-sale is a net positive, but I think it will also allow the dishonest dealers to play more games with ADM and haggling. They dealers will probably obfuscate by making it seem like the $12,500 discount off of "market rate" is coming out of the their pocket. They may not even tell the customer about the credit they're getting if they're especially devious. I'd feel pretty great about getting $5000 off MSRP for my new Bolt if I didn't know that the dealer would be able to pocket $7500 of EV credit in the deal.

The salesmen either didn't know (or care) about the credit when I bought my last 2 EVs in 2014 and 2019. The haggling was annoying enough at that point--I can't imagine adding the credit into the mix...

Agree - POS discount will definitely lead to a lot of dealers playing games with numbers and tricking / forcing customers to pay what they want.

it's like the oldest trick in the car business: your monthly, interest rate, your used car trade in value and new car purchase at the same time deal (4 square).

When I got my 2018 Honda PHEV, there was at that time a Honda manufacturer total credit of $10,500 ($7500 tax credit given back to the lease in the form of a cap cost reduction + $3000 Honda incentive) which may or may not get passed onto the consumer.

Most interesting fact:
I called around and most of the dealers said, there is no such incentive and that they plan on keeping the $10,500 but will "give" me a $5,000 discount on the car (dealer steals the remaining $5500 from the table).

Luckily I found a few dealers that were transparent and gave me the $10,500 plus $2500 dealer discount for total discount of $13,000 off the car's cap cost.

Guess which dealer I went with....

 

[HtownHog]

Agree - POS discount will definitely lead to a lot of dealers playing games with numbers and tricking / forcing customers to pay what they want.

it's like the oldest trick in the car business: your monthly, interest rate, your used car trade in value and new car purchase at the same time deal (4 square).

When I got my 2018 Honda PHEV, there was at that time a Honda manufacturer total credit of $10,500 ($7500 tax credit given back to the lease in the form of a cap cost reduction + $3000 Honda incentive) which may or may not get passed onto the consumer.

Most interesting fact:
I called around and most of the dealers said, there is no such incentive and that they plan on keeping the $10,500 but will "give" me a $5,000 discount on the car (dealer steals the remaining $5500 from the table).

Luckily I found a few dealers that were transparent and gave me the $10,500 plus $2500 dealer discount for total discount of $13,000 off the car's cap cost.

Guess which dealer I went with....

Similar story with my Kia Stinger GT2. Went with a dealer that didn’t even know there was a lease discount since most of their buyers all purchase. Worked the deal upfront with the sole discussion of no financing discounts. Ended up adding $9,000 off for their lease, issue was Kia money factor was trash. Turned around and bought the lease out before the first months payment and financed with my credit union for 1.49%.

 

[greenne]

I wonder if Greene would be ok with a variable rebate based on how much you put IN. Not likely. He loves the Robinhood system - take from the rich and give to the poor.

You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. I do know for certain that you are embarrassing yourself.

Actually I would.....say 5% or 10% rebate off the MSRP would be fine with me.

 

[greenne]

So you get to judge what opinion a person should or should not have?
Nice.

Yes. Next question....

Aren't all opinions judged? I mean if you say Chicago Pizza is the best(in your opinion) and I say NY pizza is the best(in my opinion) aren't they mutually exclusive?

I'm not judging you for having an opinion, I'm judging your opinion on its merits.

Whats wrong with respectful debate?

 

[greenne]

Likely he’s a speculator and what Greene wants is a point-of-sale subsidy rather than a tax credit. That way he can leave his EV certified Ford dealer and stop at Carmax, Carvanna, etc. for multiple offers on the drive home.

Then list it on eBay if necessary and flip his Lightning for the highest offer, hoping to pocket at least $12,500.00 cash in the process.

Edited to add: I can’t help but wonder how many of the 160K reservation holders are speculators. No intention of keeping the Lightning but rather turning it for a quick profit.

Uhh..no.

In full disclosure some of my income is VA benefits and non taxable. I don't have enough tax liability under the current credit scheme to get the full $7500. The same would be true if I was retired and living off investment savings. Why should people like this not be able to take the full credit when someone who is working full time be able to take full credit?

Why should a waitress who is buying her first car in 15yrs(and saved up several years to do so) not be able to take the $7500 when some stockbroker buying his/her 2nd or 3rd car be able to take full advantage?

I don't think anyone should get less credit because they have more, just EVERYONE should get a fair shake.

BTW..My Lightning would be replacing a 13yo SUV. No speculating here. I'd be happy if there was some sort of way you had to keep it 3yrs so you didn't "flip it"-- but I don't know how you'd enforce that.

 

[greenne]

I wonder if Greene would be ok with a variable rebate based on how much you put IN. Not likely. He loves the Robinhood system - take from the rich and give to the poor.

You don't know me or anyone else on this forum. I do know for certain that you are embarrassing yourself.

And you don't know me either.. so you have no idea what I "love" and I don't. Don't be so obtuse...

 

[astricklin]

I think point-of-sale is a net positive, but I think it will also allow the dishonest dealers to play more games with ADM and haggling. They dealers will probably obfuscate by making it seem like the $12,500 discount off of "market rate" is coming out of the their pocket. They may not even tell the customer about the credit they're getting if they're especially devious. I'd feel pretty great about getting $5000 off MSRP for my new Bolt if I didn't know that the dealer would be able to pocket $7500 of EV credit in the deal.

The salesmen either didn't know (or care) about the credit when I bought my last 2 EVs in 2014 and 2019. The haggling was annoying enough at that point--I can't imagine adding the credit into the mix...

So if it's a tax credit/rebate either you may not qualify based on income or you have to wait and you also have to finance the entire price before the rebate.
If it's point of sale, unscrupulous dealerships may take advantage of people.

Why don't they make it where you can assign the tax credit to the financial institution. It would still act as a down payment, giving you the full amount up front, but then the dealership can't play pricing games. The bank pays the dealer the agreed upon purchase price and then you 'pay' the tax rebate to the bank as a down payment along with whatever additional down payment or what not.

Sponsored