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techguydave

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It looks like we’ve rounded the corner. While the Dems will continue to go through the motions in the Senate, there’s no way Manchin and a few other centrist Dems there can look past yesterday’s CBO “reality” pricing of BBB - so it is truly dead at this point. Which may be why Ford is now putting up Lightning pricing. Early reservations should count on the $7,500 credit, regardless of pricing (no $80k limit), with full phase-out late next year. The biggest risk to Lightning orders is a fast or elevated Mach-E production/sales pace - every Mach E delivery will reduce the credit availability to Lightning buyers.
Does it look completely dead in the water, or will we at least get the point-of-sale part passed?
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TF1000

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Before BBB I thought there was a stand alone bill to extend the EV credits. It made it out of committee but was never voted on. If BBB does die it's possible it may get more attention.
 

PungoteagueDave

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Does it look completely dead in the water, or will we at least get the point-of-sale part passed?
There's no a la carte here. BBB is a package. The old EV credit is a personal tax return thing, not point of sale, as you know. That's what will survive - the default option, with the $7,500 depending on you having $7,500 of tax liability and Ford having not run through their 200k limit on credits. Perhaps there's a remote possibility for a standalone bill that does point of sale or even an enhanced credit with fewer or no limits, but I would not hold my breath in an election year that is swinging hard against the Dems, who look to lose both the House and Senate, perhaps in a big way - even the NYT sees this coming.
 

TF1000

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S.1298 - Clean Energy for America Act is the Legislation I was referring to. It eliminates the limitations of the number of vehicles eligible and makes the credits refundable. No idea if it has any chance of passing.
 

vandy1981

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It looks like we’ve rounded the corner. While the Dems will continue to go through the motions in the Senate, there’s no way Manchin and a few other centrist Dems there can look past yesterday’s CBO “reality” pricing of BBB
The report that's being referenced assumes some of the provisions of the BBB bill would continue through 2031 without offsets, even though the bill isn't written that way.

It was a clever tactic meant to give Manchin cover for voting against the bill. It could work, but it's typically hypocritical considering the 2017 tax cut bill was written with the assumption that they would expire in 2025.

I don't think the odds of BBB passage are great, but things probably aren't as dire as PungoteagueDave make them out to be.
 

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PungoteagueDave

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The report that's being referenced assumes some of the provisions of the BBB bill would continue through 2031 without offsets, even though the bill isn't written that way.

It was a clever tactic meant to give Manchin cover for voting against the bill. It could work, but it's typically hypocritical considering the 2017 tax cut bill was written with the assumption that they would expire in 2025.

I don't think the odds of BBB passage are great, but things probably aren't as dire as PungoteagueDave make them out to be.
Not so much a "tactic" as an attempt at reality. What the House did here was to craft a bill with a lot of provisions that had new entitlement like free child care that were super-expensive, so they put sunsets on them of only one or two years, so the bill would price out cheap and they could sell it as such - knowing full well that once constituents got addicted to the new freebies, they would get extended. So Machin and others have correctly asked for the bill to be re-priced in the real world - with the assumption that even though the bill is not written that way - what IF all of these new programs are extended (because we KNOW that is the intent of the writers all along), what is the REAL cost, without all the chicanery and trickery designed into the bill. So the "clever tactic" as you refer to it is really an attempt to remove the bill's clever tactic of obscuring the true cost of the legislation - and price it at it's ACTUAL cost so that the American people and fellow legislators can see it for what it really is. As an economist, I prefer reality to fantasy. The BBB bill as passed was the fantasy, the latest CBO pricing is much closer to reality.

Your reference to the sunset provisions in the 2017 tax bill is illustrative - those sunsets were many years in the future (2025 vs 2017). Some of the BBB sunsets are only one or two years. And as it stands right now, most of the 2017 sunsets are STILL slated to expire as planned - and will do so assuming the Dems remain in power - and Biden holds the veto pen, which he will still have in 2017 - so those sunsets will likely activate as planned. Virtually no one believes any of the sunsets built into BBB will go away - in fact it is specifically DESIGNED to structurally change the way this country operates - in so many words. It is a statist's dream - a combination of Elizabeth Warren's and Bernie Sander's pipe dreams - so far from the centrist programs promised during the campaign as to be unrecognizable. Dead, dead, dead.
 

Losi

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Not so much a "tactic" as an attempt at reality. What the House did here was to craft a bill with a lot of provisions that had new entitlement like free child care that were super-expensive, so they put sunsets on them of only one or two years, so the bill would price out cheap and they could sell it as such - knowing full well that once constituents got addicted to the new freebies, they would get extended. So Machin and others have correctly asked for the bill to be re-priced in the real world - with the assumption that even though the bill is not written that way - what IF all of these new programs are extended (because we KNOW that is the intent of the writers all along), what is the REAL cost, without all the chicanery and trickery designed into the bill. So the "clever tactic" as you refer to it is really an attempt to remove the bill's clever tactic of obscuring the true cost of the legislation - and price it at it's ACTUAL cost so that the American people and fellow legislators can see it for what it really is. As an economist, I prefer reality to fantasy. The BBB bill as passed was the fantasy, the latest CBO pricing is much closer to reality.

Your reference to the sunset provisions in the 2017 tax bill is illustrative - those sunsets were many years in the future (2025 vs 2017). Some of the BBB sunsets are only one or two years. And as it stands right now, most of the 2017 sunsets are STILL slated to expire as planned - and will do so assuming the Dems remain in power - and Biden holds the veto pen, which he will still have in 2017 - so those sunsets will likely activate as planned. Virtually no one believes any of the sunsets built into BBB will go away - in fact it is specifically DESIGNED to structurally change the way this country operates - in so many words. It is a statist's dream - a combination of Elizabeth Warren's and Bernie Sander's pipe dreams - so far from the centrist programs promised during the campaign as to be unrecognizable. Dead, dead, dead.
This is a very thoughtful, informed, measured post about the demise of BBB. It might very well happen just as you predict (although I hope universal pre-k, lower prescription drug costs and paid family leave make it in some form or fashion, at some point). You’re good at articulating what you’re against. I’m curious to know what you stand FOR that would help low and middle income Americans that will be completely funded since we’re suddenly concerned about fiscal responsibility. I’m no economist and would benefit from a lecture, I guess lol. Other than uniformly obstructing an investigation and doling out big tax breaks, I don’t see many ideas or even a coherent platform coming from conservatives.
 
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Canada proposes deal to align EV tax credits with U.S.

https://www.autonews.com/regulation-safety/canada-proposes-deal-align-ev-tax-credits-us

Trudeau, speaking Monday in Ottawa, said one option is to align electric-vehicle incentives in Canada and the U.S. “to make sure that there’s no slippage or no unfair advantages on one side or the other.” He added that conversations on how to solve the dispute are ongoing between the two sides right now.
 

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Not so much a "tactic" as an attempt at reality. What the House did here was to craft a bill with a lot of provisions that had new entitlement like free child care that were super-expensive, so they put sunsets on them of only one or two years, so the bill would price out cheap and they could sell it as such - knowing full well that once constituents got addicted to the new freebies, they would get extended. So Machin and others have correctly asked for the bill to be re-priced in the real world - with the assumption that even though the bill is not written that way - what IF all of these new programs are extended (because we KNOW that is the intent of the writers all along), what is the REAL cost, without all the chicanery and trickery designed into the bill. So the "clever tactic" as you refer to it is really an attempt to remove the bill's clever tactic of obscuring the true cost of the legislation - and price it at it's ACTUAL cost so that the American people and fellow legislators can see it for what it really is. As an economist, I prefer reality to fantasy. The BBB bill as passed was the fantasy, the latest CBO pricing is much closer to reality.

Your reference to the sunset provisions in the 2017 tax bill is illustrative - those sunsets were many years in the future (2025 vs 2017). Some of the BBB sunsets are only one or two years. And as it stands right now, most of the 2017 sunsets are STILL slated to expire as planned - and will do so assuming the Dems remain in power - and Biden holds the veto pen, which he will still have in 2017 - so those sunsets will likely activate as planned. Virtually no one believes any of the sunsets built into BBB will go away - in fact it is specifically DESIGNED to structurally change the way this country operates - in so many words. It is a statist's dream - a combination of Elizabeth Warren's and Bernie Sander's pipe dreams - so far from the centrist programs promised during the campaign as to be unrecognizable. Dead, dead, dead.

Correct, the only "tactic" here was employed by the House Dems by putting in obviously fake sunsets so they could say the bill was "paid for". Anytime a politician says their boondoggle is paid for start looking at the fine print. It's not likely that even the fake bill was paid for since tax revenue "recovery" measures and other similar revenue generating schemes never live up to what they are billed to do because they don't take into account that people/business change behavior. People adjust to the new schemes and move money to other tax shelters.

The bill is massively unpopular, I'd be shocked to see it passed. As much as I'd like another EV credit it just isn't happening. Even if they hacked the bill up and got it passed I would bet the EV credit is one of the first things that gets pulled.
 

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sotek2345

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Correct, the only "tactic" here was employed by the House Dems by putting in obviously fake sunsets so they could say the bill was "paid for". Anytime a politician says their boondoggle is paid for start looking at the fine print. It's not likely that even the fake bill was paid for since tax revenue "recovery" measures and other similar revenue generating schemes never live up to what they are billed to do because they don't take into account that people/business change behavior. People adjust to the new schemes and move money to other tax shelters.

The bill is massively unpopular, I'd be shocked to see it passed. As much as I'd like another EV credit it just isn't happening. Even if they hacked the bill up and got it passed I would bet the EV credit is one of the first things that gets pulled.
Actually the bill is overall popular and individual provisions in the bill enjoy very high popularity.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2021/9/17/the-build-back-better-plan-remains-popular
 

LightningShow

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Actually the bill is overall popular and individual provisions in the bill enjoy very high popularity.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2021/9/17/the-build-back-better-plan-remains-popular

That poll is from September. Inflation has skyrocketed since then, among a series of other issues. Popularity of the bill has been dropping over time. Here's a poll from last week. 41% support.



Just 41% of the survey's respondents said they support the Build Back Better bill, the roughly $2 trillion bill currently being negotiated in Congress. Nearly three-quarters of all Democrats said the support the bill but only 36% of independents and 13% of Republicans agreed.
 

Nick Gerteis

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This is a very thoughtful, informed, measured post about the demise of BBB. It might very well happen just as you predict (although I hope universal pre-k, lower prescription drug costs and paid family leave make it in some form or fashion, at some point). You’re good at articulating what you’re against. I’m curious to know what you stand FOR that would help low and middle income Americans that will be completely funded since we’re suddenly concerned about fiscal responsibility. I’m no economist and would benefit from a lecture, I guess lol. Other than uniformly obstructing an investigation and doling out big tax breaks, I don’t see many ideas or even a coherent platform coming from conservatives.
And that’s straight from the Manchin/Sinema playbook. Always concerned and against, never saying what could work. As a matter of fact, the only reason the sunsets were added was because Manchin complained about the original $3T price tag and wanted it reduced to 1.5T. Time to put the sucker up for a vote, put up or shut up, the country will be ok if it doesn’t pass. And it’ll be better if it does.
 

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Yesterday the Dems voted to raise the debt limit to 31.4 Trillion. Said they needed to in order to pay the bills. LOL I bet they pass the BBB that’s chock full of more spending (sarcastically stated). It ain’t gonna happen.
 
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Maybe we can move the discussion off of politics and back to what happens to a possible Lightning EV Credit?

All the facts in the world will not change anyone’s mind here.

If the EV portion does not pass they probably will try to pass a stand alone later in 2022 leaving many potential buyers maybe short of down payment until then.

For right now the reality is you need up to $7,500 in taxes due 2023 for 2022 to get up to $7,500 back and you will not earn it until taxes are filed in 2023. Ford will use up their 200,000 EV allotment in 2022 but it is extended 2 more quarters until early in 2023.

That reality may cause some buyers to wait to order.
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