Lightning Could Charge Better Than Rivian Above 20% SOC?

[adoublee]

There has been some complaint about Lightning 150kW DC fast charge power rating, compared to Rivian "up to" 210kW of peak power. A new TFL test starting at 20% SOC one might expect to roll a DC fast charge station at, showed rates that did not exceed 151kW. It falls off a cliff and hits 79kW at 67% SOC.

Lightning specs indicate 54 miles in 10 minutes - no indication of SOC this occurs at so we should assume it would be at a low SOC. If Lightning is 2.15 miles/kWh, this would be 25.1kWh over 0.1666 hours or an average rate of... 150.6kW or a nominal 150kW max rating.

Point is that Lightning charge rate might match Rivian charge rate at some points in the SOC range. In fact, Lighting still has the opportunity to pump more kWh into the vehicle from 20% to 80% SOC if Ford can hit a home run with the charge curve.

Rivian:

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[gorwell]

Couple of factors can impact charging speed. One of the biggest is temperature.

But right now. I think most would say that the rivian is still rough around the edges in terms of software, which is mostly what charging is as they have the hardware for faster charging.

Rivian can do a max of 210. It's likely going to get fined tuned over time to optimize the curve. But you would only see that for a short time during ideal temps. People have seen closet to 200 already.

Ford as far as anyone knows is maxed at 150. It won't match rivian

 

[adoublee]

Couple of factors can impact charging speed. One of the biggest is temperature.

But right now. I think most would say that the rivian is still rough around the edges in terms of software, which is mostly what charging is as they have the hardware for faster charging.

Rivian can do a max of 210. It's likely going to get fined tuned over time to optimize the curve. But you would only see that for a short time during ideal temps. People have seen closet to 200 already.

Ford as far as anyone knows is maxed at 150. It won't match rivian

Its not about peak power but level of sustained power and how that matches up with where on the SOC curve people want to be charging. Rivian may still have them beat, but their curve does not seem that impressive and it takes more than slick software to keep batteries protected.

 

[adoublee]

From TFLEV commentary video, it sounds like Rivian might have a bit of a Rapidgate issue like Nissan Leaf's experienced - significantly throttled DC fast charging after a heavy towing session. It sounds like recovery started shortly after dropping off a cliff, maybe more details in a coming tow video.

They also discussed regen of 2% comming down a mountain with a heavy trailer - seems very beatable as well. Hopefully Ford with the max tow package has them beat in both categories.

 

[LightningShow]

Ford claims 41 minutes for 15-80% for the ER battery on a 150kW DCFC. That's an average of 125kW for that span, which is pretty good and looks like it's probably about the same as the Rivian test...

BUT, big BUT, pretty much every charging test I've ever seen, or heard of, the car being charged doesn't meet its manufacturer claimed charge rate, sometimes it's not even close. I definitely DO NOT expect the Lightning to get the charge rates that Ford claims for DCFC, simply because no car gets the charge rates they claim.


EDIT: There are a bunch of conflicting numbers out there from Ford on efficiency. For example, the 54 miles in 10 minutes. You would assume that's 150kW for 10 minutes, which would be 25kWh. 54 mi/25kWh is 2.16 mi/kWh. Of course, they also claim a 300 mile "targeted" range for a 131 kWh battery, which would be 2.29 mi/kWh and that is, supposedly, with 1,000lb of payload. So you could reasonably expect another 5-10% with just the driver, so 2.4-2.5mi/kWh. In that case, 25kWh should get you over 60 miles. Maybe the 54 mi in 10 minutes accounts for battery conditioning, ramp up and ramp down. I don't know. But if the truck only gets 2.16 mi/kWh it's not going to meet their "targeted" EPA range.

 

[adoublee]

Couple of factors can impact charging speed. One of the biggest is temperature.

But right now. I think most would say that the rivian is still rough around the edges in terms of software, which is mostly what charging is as they have the hardware for faster charging.

Rivian can do a max of 210. It's likely going to get fined tuned over time to optimize the curve. But you would only see that for a short time during ideal temps. People have seen closet to 200 already.

Ford as far as anyone knows is maxed at 150. It won't match rivian

Looking like Lightning will essentially match R1T time from 15% - 80% SOC due to Rivian taking a steep nosedive in charge rate everywhere above 20%. This appears to be with Rivians up to date selected charge curve and not in summer heat.

However, this is still based on a Lightning curve estimate from data @tommolog says he got from Ford but hase not shared.

If accurate, I'd rather live with the Lightning curve and not play the game of trying to time fast reacharges around draining to near-zero SOC before stopping.

@tommolog - put these charts on the same kW scale for side by sides!

 

[Vorador]

Rivian seems to have thermal management issues. It has a nice top charge speed, but drops off fast. I think Lightning will charge faster at this point until Rivian figures things out.

 

[Roy2001]

No matter what, Ford needs to implement 800v battery to achieve 300kW for 2nd generation Lightning in 2025 MY.

 

[LightningShow]

I'm curious about how the 350kW network gets rolled out. Around here (New England) 150kW stations aren't even that common. 350kW are essentially non-existent. I'm not even sure if 400V charging will be a dealbreaker by 2025. The CCS charging infrastructure doesn't seem to be growing anywhere near the pace of EV sales.

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