Transition to EV, why Ford/GM still need dealers to sell the trucks?

[PungoteagueDave]

Clearly we have had a very different experience with Tesla and with the dealerships, which is inevitable, but for me, before we had a local service center, the two times that I actually had to have my Tesla serviced, I scheduled Tesla mobile service come to my house and the problem was resolved. One required ordering a part which took a week to come in, but once it did, they made a second appointment to come out an installed it. I had equally good experiences with my previous Honda, when getting service done through the local dealership.

The buying experience on the other hand has been much different. When I ordered my Tesla, I entered the options and paid my deposit online, they called to verify and I had to deal with financing and such, but I paid the listed price and about 45 days later, my car was available to pick up. No ADM, no dealer addons, no nonsense.

With the Lightning, the process has been the worst car buying experience of my life. I ordered online, was forced to immediately choose between dealers that I had never dealt with before, and then put down my $100 placeholder. I spoke to the dealer after the order and they say that they don't add ADM, but they would likely have 3k worth of dealer add-ons, which was annoying, but since pricing had not yet been announced and I knew that the $7500 tax credit would likely still be on the table, I figured that it was still worth it.

In December pricing was announced, and like many, I was dismayed that the ER versions were beyond my reach, but the Pro seemed like a bargain. Then Jan 6 comes and I had one of the Wave 1 golden tickets! I got my F150 Lightning Pro spec'd, ordered, paid my $1000 deposit and the dealer accepted the order. I was excited.

That excitement turned to profound anger last Friday when the dealer called and said that they would be only getting one F150 Lightning in 2022, and as a result they would be marking my truck up $20k over MSRP because "that's what they are going for" and if I wasn't willing to pay, they would refund my deposit, cancel my order, and configure the truck for somebody else. I did not agree to any additional markup, and have not cancelled my order. This is currently being escalated through the Lightning Team at Ford customer support.

Again, this has turned out to be the worst car buying experience of my life (assuming I even get to purchase a truck at this point) and never would have happened under a direct sales model.

My three Tesla purchasing experiences have been increasing levels of frustration and disappointment in the business model. And their service is horrible. Love the vehicles, cannot stand the company at this point. Very early adopter, 2010 reservation, 2012 owner, over 225k miles driven in Teslas to-date. My '19 MX is being replaced by the incoming Lightning.

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[hhulseman]

Ford CEO has been quoted to suggest spinning out the EV business into a separate company. Wouldn't this separate it from their dealer network also?

 

[Snakebitten]

You still buy Ram trucks at your Dodge dealership

 

[EVben]

Have been very happy with Tesla direct purchasing and service but it may be a good service center. Have def heard mixed reviews.

My good experience biases me but I’m fine with direct, msrp whatever, tell me what it costs and I’ll decide if I want it.

A positive with direct, ex Tesla, for better or worse, they “own” the sale and service, if you have a bad experience that’s on them and reflects directly on their company.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I would be thrilled if the antiquated dealer model collapsed and I could order direct from the manufacturer. Dealers have never provided me with any added value.

When I've needed maintenance, I do it myself. And if I can't do it myself, I should be able to go to anyone who did the work to become a certified mechanic for that vehicle.

As it is now, Ford's customers are not us, the end consumers. Ford's customers are, by law, dealerships. So, when we look at where we are in the ordering queue, remember that Ford cannot sell to us, they're selling to a dealership. Since they're required to treat them as their customers, Ford is going to do what they need to do to maximize profits. If this seems like a crap deal, that's because it is. I'm hoping the ADM issue, among others, pushes Ford to lobby for weakening dealerships.

 

[EaglesPDX]

And if I can't do it myself, I should be able to go to anyone who did the work to become a certified mechanic for that vehicle.

You can only go to Tesla for maintenance and repairs. Even body work is problematic unless the body shop is "Tesla Certified".

You don't like one dealer you can to another for sales or service. Not so with Tesla.

I think that was the original genesis of the dealer laws was mfgs. getting monopolistic.

Apple recently lost a lawsuit about repair monopoly and Tesla will likely lose a similar lawsuit.

 

[sotek2345]

You can only go to Tesla for maintenance and repairs. Even body work is problematic unless the body shop is "Tesla Certified".

You don't like one dealer you can to another for sales or service. Not so with Tesla.

I think that was the original genesis of the dealer laws was mfgs. getting monopolistic.

Apple recently lost a lawsuit about repair monopoly and Tesla will likely lose a similar lawsuit.

This is especially problematic if there are no Tesla sales / service centers around you. Towing the vehicle (more likely a flatbed) hundreds of miles is a pricy proposition every time you need something fixed that means you can't reliably drive the vehicle. Taking a full day (or multiple days) for every service visit isn't fun either.

 

[jfried]

As "the person above" who you can't understand, allow me to enlighten you. I was very clear in the original post that I didn't have a problem with the dealer until AFTER I had placed the order and paid their deposit, not the $100 reservation fee, the deposit. There is no way to change dealers after the order is placed and deposit paid. This was confirmed to me multiple times by Ford Customer Support. But please, if it is "clearly posted" as repeatedly stated, please provide a link, or a screenshot, or anything explainging how it can be done AFTER the order has been placed.

But what's even more astonishing about your claim is that you also state:

Interesting, if you had such a good relationship with your dealer, why did you switch?

... but wait, there's more:

Really? They literally have a line item in the Dealer Selling Price section of their order form for it, "Difference from Total MSRP".

Also, to aggressively combat dealer markup, you would think that the first step would be them creating an easy way to report it. How does one do that? Even if you call customer support, they don't even make a note of it, they just say, "Some dealers do that, change to a different one." Then when you ask them how to do that after you've placed your order, they say that they don't know and then transfer you to somebody else. Then after the third person you speak with who has said the same thing, they say that the will escalate it and contact you within 3 days ... and then they don't. Ask me how I know all of this.


To begin with, I guess this is a 100% factual statement. But it's equally true that there is not one instance of an F150EV selling at MSRP or below either because none have been sold.

As for dealers marking F150EVs above MSRP, I called all 5 dealers in the OKC area. 2 said that they were selling their reservations / preorders at MSRP, and 3 said they were even marking up orders by reservation holders. 4 of 5 said that they were adding ADM to vehicles on the lot when they get them, and the fifth didn't know (I called after the GM had left). And in fact one of the most popular threads in this forum with over 57,000 views is dedicated to dealers that mark up over MSRP.
*As a side note, I have zero problem with dealers marking up cars / trucks on their lot provided those cars weren't attained by screwing over a reservation holder.

EaglesPDX, I don't see your name on the order list, have you even ordered your Lightning yet?

Honestly, I'd just be firm with the dealer. They set up "their pricing" relative to MSRP on the website, and "accepted" your order for an amount that was mutually agreed upon. A website order CAN BE A LEGALLY BINDING DOCUMENT.

If they say "we're changing price" -- you simply say, no, we have an agreed price and a legally binding contract with consideration (the deposit) being changed. I have made plans around the purchase of this vehicle, and in addition to the consideration of the deposit, I have provided you with my timestamp XXX reservation.

If they say, "well, we'll just cancel your order" -- again, hold firm, no, you are not agreeing to release them from their obligation with respect to the vehicle.

If they cancel your order, file a lawsuit against the dealer. At the very least, you will be entitled to all additional markup they obtained on the vehicle, and likely punitive damages as well. Then call Ford to explain your situation, maybe they can "bump you up" with a new reservation.

Ultimately, if you hold firm and convey strongly that you know your stuff, the dealer will likely fold. They don't really want to be involved in a lawsuit / media storm.

 

[Marshall]

This is especially problematic if there are no Tesla sales / service centers around you. Towing the vehicle (more likely a flatbed) hundreds of miles is a pricy proposition every time you need something fixed.

When Tesla didn't have service centers in Oklahoma, they had mobile service come to you at a time and location of your choosing. My 2 experiences with Tesla mobile service were both terrific, one was to service a squeaky brake, the other was to upgrade the autopilot computer.

 

[sotek2345]

When Tesla didn't have service centers in Oklahoma, they had mobile service come to you at a time and location of your choosing. My 2 experiences with Tesla mobile service were both terrific, one was to service a squeaky brake, the other was to upgrade the autopilot computer.

But how much does something like that cost when it isn't a warranty repair vs. going to a local garage.

 

[Marshall]

But how much does something like that cost when it isn't a warranty repair vs. going to a local garage.

We have a local Tesla Service Center now, so that wouldn't be an issue. But we can't think of this in a bubble either. The entire garage mechanic paradigm will be changing over the next couple of decades as EVs become more prevalent.

Realize that outside of brakes, tires, suspension and some interior stuff, there's very little that a local garage could do to fix an electric vehicle. But if an electric motor did fail, nobody's bringing it to Bob's Backyard Autoshop for service anyway because it would quickly become Bob's Backyard Barbeque with Burnt Bob becoming the daily special. This is as true of a Ford EV as it is of a Tesla. Bob neither has the tools nor the training to work on an electric vehicle.

That said, I fully expect some version of a "Right to Repair" bill to be passed before my Model 3 goes out of warranty anyway, giving Bob the ability to order parts and get access to the manuals necessary to repair brakes, suspension, or rip the dash apart and replace an A/C blower motor.

 

[Edward Abel]

With dealers to have hundreds of cars/trucks in parking lots, we finish purchasing within a few hours and drive home with a new vehicle. But this model would add the cost because dealers have to borrow the money and rent/buy land then order the vehicles. In addition to that, they have to slash the price of slow selling vehicles.

With F150 Lightning order procedure, do you guys feel that we don't need them? All we need is to have Lightning ship to dealers so we can pickup. I don't see ANY value to have them interfere our purchase procedure.

I believe once Ford/GM started to order/configure online, they would abandon the dealership inventory. Dealers would only help to deliver and provide services. They are redundant when we order the vehicles.

In the United States, direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in many states by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers.

Why Can’t Car Manufacturers Direct Sell to Consumers?
You’ll notice that I say “can’t”, and not “won’t”. This is a big distinction. The reason is that there are several laws that flat-out ban direct sales to consumers.

Not only that, but it’s also illegal for any manufacturer to open up their own dealership. All dealerships have to be completely private and unrelated to the car’s manufacturer.

Ford Dealership
When you shop with Sunshine Ford, you won’t see an assembly line in their backroom. They are buying vehicles directly from a Ford manufacturing site and selling them to you.

It’s also important to point out another distinction. It isn’t illegal for you to buy directly from the manufacturer, it’s illegal for them to sell to consumers. Otherwise, you would have groups of outlaws cutting corners and illegally buying from manufacturers, and saving a ton of money.

 

[sotek2345]

In the United States, direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in many states by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers.

Why Can’t Car Manufacturers Direct Sell to Consumers?
You’ll notice that I say “can’t”, and not “won’t”. This is a big distinction. The reason is that there are several laws that flat-out ban direct sales to consumers.

Not only that, but it’s also illegal for any manufacturer to open up their own dealership. All dealerships have to be completely private and unrelated to the car’s manufacturer.

Ford Dealership
When you shop with Sunshine Ford, you won’t see an assembly line in their backroom. They are buying vehicles directly from a Ford manufacturing site and selling them to you.

It’s also important to point out another distinction. It isn’t illegal for you to buy directly from the manufacturer, it’s illegal for them to sell to consumers. Otherwise, you would have groups of outlaws cutting corners and illegally buying from manufacturers, and saving a ton of money.

Maybe we can all buy from Ford on Indian Reservations (or D.C. - do they have franchise protection laws there?)

 

[shocker]

What most OEMS are comfortable doing is manufacturing and wholesaling. Retail, well that's complicated considering about 2% of customers have the product and financial acumen to make direct to customer sales feasible. Like the 2% that buys things like electric vehicles.

 

[jfried]

We have a local Tesla Service Center now, so that wouldn't be an issue. But we can't think of this in a bubble either. The entire garage mechanic paradigm will be changing over the next couple of decades as EVs become more prevalent.

Realize that outside of brakes, tires, suspension and some interior stuff, there's very little that a local garage could do to fix an electric vehicle. But if an electric motor did fail, nobody's bringing it to Bob's Backyard Autoshop for service anyway because it would quickly become Bob's Backyard Barbeque with Burnt Bob becoming the daily special. This is as true of a Ford EV as it is of a Tesla. Bob neither has the tools nor the training to work on an electric vehicle.

That said, I fully expect some version of a "Right to Repair" bill to be passed before my Model 3 goes out of warranty anyway, giving Bob the ability to order parts and get access to the manuals necessary to repair brakes, suspension, or rip the dash apart and replace an A/C blower motor.

Completely agree.

Isn't the whole "deal" with electric cars is that the first service they really need is new tires?

Obviously, as these cars get older and need to be kept on the road into their teens, 20s, maybe independent facilities will begin to gain the skill to work on these vehicles.

However, I also sense that these electric vehicles may have a higher "disposability" than ICE vehicles. How many 2004 Priuses are still on the road versus 2004 camry's?

When you consider the proportion of the vehicles that are inherently connected, the astronomically high proportion of the vehicle that is represented by the battery, which is a wear-item, repairing once the vehicle is 10 years old just may not make any sense.

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