Uh, Oh... looks like the EV tax credits are hitting an obstacle

[Brian Head Yankee]

Misses the point that we are in global warming crisis and EV's are one of the responses to global warming threat.

The "winner" we are picking is the human race surviving global warming not a most economical transportation method but the only viable transportation option, zero emissions.

Because of these facts it is the government's No. 1 job to eliminate green house gas emissions and we can't waste time indulging a few people's economic ideological purity. The bed is burning.

I thought this was a forum for the F150 Lightning where a bunch of citizens that want an EV, gather to discuss the new truck Ford announced. This is not a place to bash people that don't see it your way and don't need a subsidy to be green. I suggest that you keep your burning bed to yourself and praise those that are here joining the EV crowd.

How we see you:

fanatic:
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.

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[shutterbug]

Except you are not "the market".

That it sits on the lot in pro-EV states (Kona ships to CARB states mostly) with good state EV incentives on top of the Federal tax credit proves the point that the $13-$17k price differential is too much to move a great EV. Many in the economic demographic of the Kona don't qualify for the subsidy as it is.

All evidence points to raising the EV subsidies to boost sales and production. That has been proven effective around the world in all economies.

I am not the market, but the state I live in is a significant part of it. If Kona need to be priced at the Chevy Spark level, then it's not going to set the world on fire. Not to OEMs: design and build cars people actually want.

 

[shutterbug]

ZEV credits show as $1.2B in 2019 and 2020 combined. There are also billion$ in state tax breaks that come due each year as every Tesla facility has received huge tax breaks.

Calling BS on this. Tesla has not had federal tax credit available since 1/1/2020. Many states such as mine, offer $0.00 in credits and other subsidies, and yet Tesla is selling lots of cars there. Not only that, but there is a brisk business in used Teslas.

 

[greenne]

Calling BS on this. Tesla has not had federal tax credit available since 1/1/2020. Many states such as mine, offer $0.00 in credits and other subsidies, and yet Tesla is selling lots of cars there. Not only that, but there is a brisk business in used Teslas.

How about I throw that $465 Million Loan to Tesla from the DOE into the mix... TESLA | Department of Energy

Oh..and also se the $14.7 million in Tax breaks for Tesla's new Austin Factory( Texas county approves tax breaks for a new Tesla factory near Austin (cnbc.com) ), payroll benefits for Tesla under the guise of Covid relief( Elon Musk Is A Government Subsidy Critic, But Tesla’s Q2 Results Were Helped By Covid-19 Aid (forbes.com) )

To review State and Local Tax breaks on their products...you can review them all conveniently on Tesla's website at Electric Vehicle & Solar Incentives | Tesla

Quit acting like Tesla ain't got their hand out for government money...

 

[EaglesPDX]

I am not the market, but the state I live in is a significant part of it.

Apparently not if, as you say, Hyundai does not offer the Kona EV in your state.

To this topic, Kona EV demonstrates the $15k EV/ICE price differential. It demonstrates that less expensive EV's cater to an economic demographic that cannot afford to pay more for a car and likely can't take advantage of the Federal tax credit.

Subsidies are effective in increasing sales and production of EV's. Improving US Federal tax credit will increase sales and production of EV's. The goal.

 

[F150ROD]

The sad part is Tesla tells the govt. to go kick rocks whenever safety issues come up…

 

[EaglesPDX]

Calling BS on this. Tesla has not had federal tax credit available since 1/1/2020

ZEV credit provide a $500M a year subsidy to Tesla.

 

[MikePinkston]

Man, this is getting complicated! I just want to get a nice battery pickup and throw grandma, her rocking chair, and about 10 solar panels in the back and drive to wherever Zion is going to be after the the big solar flare. Can't do THAT with hydrogen, Mr. Toyota!

 

[Pioneer74]

That it sits on the lot in pro-EV states (Kona ships to CARB states mostly)

Then let the CARB states pay for the subsidy. And no Federal tax deduction for said subsidy.

 

[TF1000]

I have no gripe about EV. My problem is that for those who choose not to buy one, they subsidize those who do. The government has no money except that which they confiscate from the population and redistribute it to promote a desired response. So basically they steal money from me and give it to an EV buyer and further steal more from me to build charging stations. And, for those who charge these at home, further put the burden of road taxes on those ICE powered vehicles who cannot escape road taxes. When the first ICE powered vehicles started to appear at the beginning of the 20th century, there was no program for the government to build gas stations. If EV and charging stations are such a great idea, the only fair thing to do is let it rise or fall on its own merit with funds from those who buy into the program.

I chose (and my wife) not to have kids. I subsidize (big time) those who do. I have no problem with it because I see the benefit to society.

 

[techguydave]

I chose (and my wife) not to have kids. I subsidize (big time) those who do. I have no problem with it because I see the benefit to society.

But that's not the American way.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Where is this coming from? Because you don't want BBB to pass? Your bias is showing.

Here's your full stop fact: If there is no credit for the Lightning I will not buy the EV, I will buy the hybrid .

EVs are more expensive than their ICE counterparts. So yes, the credit encourages people that might be on the fence about buying an EV to give it a try. This credit is all about encouraging adoption.

Again, point missed. Whether you personally can or will buy one or not with or without the tax credits is not the issue. Ford will sell every Lightning that it can produce in the next five years, with or without folks who NEED or expect tax credits to purchase one. It already has a multi-year order backlog and its pricing is directly competitive with the ICE counterparts, with lower operating costs and a better ownership experience to be had after people see how EVs operate in real life experience. I acknowledge detesting and resisting BBB because I care about the future of this country, but the EV element is not a significant part of the issues that I have with BBB.

Your facts regarding EV costs are incorrect. Adjusted for life cycle ownership, EV's even at today's pricing, are not more expensive that their ICE counterparts after considering the present value of fuel costs, residual values, and lower maintenance. They do not quite yet have initial price parity, but that is expected within four years - and is irrelevant anyway because demand, with or without credits far exceeds the ability of the production capacity to meet that demand - they are a halo product and purchasers are willing to pay a premium. Whether or not you are willing or able to do so is irrelevant. Every one made will be sold anyway. Teslas stopped being eligible for any federal tax credits after the third quarter of 2019, two years ago. They still have a huge backlog. If you order a Model S or Model X today, you will wait a year for delivery, no tax incentive required.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

We've already established that the Kona EV is one of the bet EV's on the market.

As stated, the price differential is too high for a working person (80% of US buyers) and the subsidies are not enough to make up for it.

We need a subsidy that will equalize the price for the EV over the ICE. One could argue a subsidy to cover both the cost differential ($15k +/-) and the EV issues to get buyers to choose EV over ICE.

Using Kona example, a $20k immediately applicable credit, would provide the incentive to increase sales and production of EV's.

Ridiculous assertion. The base price for credit-qualifying EVs is inflated by the amount of available credits. When Tesla's credits went away in 2019, they reduced the price of their cars by an equal amount. Lying with statistics.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

How about I throw that $465 Million Loan to Tesla from the DOE into the mix... TESLA | Department of Energy

Oh..and also se the $14.7 million in Tax breaks for Tesla's new Austin Factory( Texas county approves tax breaks for a new Tesla factory near Austin (cnbc.com) ), payroll benefits for Tesla under the guise of Covid relief( Elon Musk Is A Government Subsidy Critic, But Tesla’s Q2 Results Were Helped By Covid-19 Aid (forbes.com) )

To review State and Local Tax breaks on their products...you can review them all conveniently on Tesla's website at Electric Vehicle & Solar Incentives | Tesla

Quit acting like Tesla ain't got their hand out for government money...

dragging stuff up from nine years ago, fully repaid and acting like it is relevant? And $14.7 million of local incentives - like Tesla really cares about pennies? Wow, just wow.

 

[TF1000]

Ridiculous assertion. The base price for credit-qualifying EVs is inflated by the amount of available credits. When Tesla's credits went away in 2019, they reduced the price of their cars by an equal amount. Lying with statistics.

Until they didn't.

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