Uh, Oh... looks like the EV tax credits are hitting an obstacle

[Pioneer74]

I, as a taxpayer, would rather pay someone to drive a cleaner EV than to pay MORE for the environmental cleanup and MORE for the health problems due to dirty air.

I'd also like us to leave our children and grandchildren with a planet not in environmental disaster.

As an aside I find it odd the same people who "don't want to leave our children with debt" have no problem leaving them with debt to pay for tax cuts and more military spending. But hey, keep on with that selected outrage.....

Stereotype much?

Sponsored

 

[greenne]

Correct and we see this playing out in the market with low end EV's sitting, $15-20K more than an ICE. Even with the current $7,500 and a state rebate pushing it to $10k, a big nut for working people to afford.

Its why subsidies have proven effective in the EV market around the world. In US, probably the least supportive of EV's compared to EU and China, the Federal tax credit is a secondary tax credit meaning there's no rebate as for a full tax credit, just countering of taxes. You have to be in the $100k income range (twice the median income in the US) to be able to fully cash in the $7,500.

And don't kid yourself, the $10k is meaningful to $100k + income earners also. I would not consider the $75k F150EV without the basic $10k in rebates.

If nothing else...I hope they change the tax credit of $7500 to be refundable or at least be able to carryover. It ridiculous that under the current credit a person with a $150k income can get a $7500 tax break whereas someone with less income cannot get that same amount.

 

[greenne]

Stereotype much?

If the shoe fits...

 

[shutterbug]

Correct and we see this playing out in the market with low end EV's sitting, $15-20K more than an ICE. Even with the current $7,500 and a state rebate pushing it to $10k, a big nut for working people to afford.

Its why subsidies have proven effective in the EV market around the world. In US, probably the least supportive of EV's compared to EU and China, the Federal tax credit is a secondary tax credit meaning there's no rebate as for a full tax credit, just countering of taxes. You have to be in the $100k income range (twice the median income in the US) to be able to fully cash in the $7,500.

And don't kid yourself, the $10k is meaningful to $100k + income earners also. I would not consider the $75k F150EV without the basic $10k in rebates.

So, basically you just want taxpayers to subsidize your lust for luxury features in a truck? You already committed to getting EV truck, but want someone else to pay for a nicer one.

 

[HtownHog]

Pretty sure gas tax had already gone up by $1 in the past year. Only instead of going to the government, we're paying it to Russia and Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.

So we are right near net zero on import/export mix. The oil we import is primarily lower quality and lower priced crude, Canada being our largest source. We haven't sent a dime of money to Venezuela for oil imports since 2019 due to serious sanctions. The best part is we can import for lower base cost and export our sweeter crude for more profits.

Interesting enough we import roughly an equal amount of crude from Saudi that we export directly to them. Global commodities trading is wild.

 

[shutterbug]

So we are right near net zero on import/export mix. The oil we import is primarily lower quality and lower priced crude, Canada being our largest source. We haven't sent a dime of money to Venezuela for oil imports since 2019 due to serious sanctions. The best part is we can import for lower base cost and export our sweeter crude for more profits.

Interesting enough we import roughly an equal amount of crude from Saudi that we export directly to them. Global commodities trading is wild.

Crude oil and and cash being fungible, when the prices rise, oil exporters (yes Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and others) benefit. Individual consumers in US and other countries pay for that.

 

[Pioneer74]

If the shoe fits...

You never measured my foot.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It ridiculous that under the current credit a person with a $150k income can get a $7500 tax break whereas someone with less income cannot get that same amount.

Totally agree and that was in the initial proposal which would have seen a $14k Federal credit for the Ford F150. It would be better to maker it a primary tax credit where taxpayer gets the full credit no matter income or tax liability. Letting buyer apply it immediately lowers the loan amount and downpayment and helps with any upper limits on EV price (there should be none) that Feds or states might apply.

I'm not optimistic that the expanded credit will get passed, too much opposition to science and EV's in US.

 

[Blainestang]

So what if it takes 2-3 years to realize the gain?

Not sure why you're trying to make this unnecessarily contentious with your "So what" question.

I'm simply responding to prior comments: Claims that it won't affect sales at all (correct in the short term, but probably not long term), and claims that the credits affected individual sales (individually, sure, but demand is so much higher than supply that it won't matter over the next 2-3 years).

Do you really think the political landscape will allow another chance at this 2-3yrs in the future? I doubt it.

I didn't say anything about the political landscape, etc.

I'm responding to specific claims.

 

[Ventorum94]

I think I'd rather have a $12.5k credit than a $4k price drop, but to each their own.

If I were Ford, I’d hold the MSRP of EVs $12.5k higher until the credits were used up…. anyone who thinks these EV credits benefit purchasers more than manufacturers needs to rethink.

 

[msitter]

I have no gripe about EV. My problem is that for those who choose not to buy one, they subsidize those who do. The government has no money except that which they confiscate from the population and redistribute it to promote a desired response. So basically they steal money from me and give it to an EV buyer and further steal more from me to build charging stations. And, for those who charge these at home, further put the burden of road taxes on those ICE powered vehicles who cannot escape road taxes. When the first ICE powered vehicles started to appear at the beginning of the 20th century, there was no program for the government to build gas stations. If EV and charging stations are such a great idea, the only fair thing to do is let it rise or fall on its own merit with funds from those who buy into the program.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It really shouldn't be a political issue.

EV's don't exist without government regs since it is a response to global warming a science issue that is a political issue due to ideological opposition to science based policy in US.

EV's exist because of government policy.

1. Gov. pollution standards for autos.
2.CA's CARB standards requiring EV's sales.
3.CARB states that follow CA's lead (30% of US)
4.Federal EV tax credits ($2B to Tesla alone)
5.ZEV tax credits ($500M of Tesla income per year is this subsidy)
6.State and local tax credits ($4.2B in cost reductions for Tesla alone)
7.$500M loan to save Tesla from bankruptcy.

EU and China both require 100% EV/zero emissions, again political decisions.

if it was just a science question, pro-EV policies would be much stronger.

 

[HtownHog]

Crude oil and and cash being fungible, when the prices rise, oil exporters (yes Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and others) benefit. Individual consumers in US and other countries pay for that.

So the US too? Again we export quite a bit of crude. Not through NOC's like many of the OPEC members but the IOC's are certainly benefiting from higher crude prices as well.

Personally I believe somewhere in the $60-70/bbl is ideal. Allows good capital investment opportunities and those NOC's have to balance capital allocation vs government service costs. Makes the best balance of consumer cost to oil company profits. Sub $40 we were all used to was extremely damaging to the global economy overall and risked significant impacts on not just the US livelihood but could have led to coups and war.

Again our import/export percentage to Saudi was basically a wash, same for Columbia. Russia's entire economy is built on their export of petroleum products. As the price tanked and demand fell so many of their public services were near collapse (yes I understand the corruption and skimming from the top). The New Map dives into the political aspects of the oil industry on a global level. really great stuff.

 

[EaglesPDX]

If EV and charging stations are such a great idea, the only fair thing to do is let it rise or fall on its own merit with funds from those who buy into the program.

Misses the point that we are in global warming crisis and EV's are one of the responses to global warming threat.

The "winner" we are picking is the human race surviving global warming not a most economical transportation method but the only viable transportation option, zero emissions.

Because of these facts it is the government's No. 1 job to eliminate green house gas emissions and we can't waste time indulging a few people's economic ideological purity. The bed is burning.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You can't compare the Kona EV to other EV cars...it is literally an ICE car with a EV power train slapped into it.

Kona EV is one of the best EV's out there.

Better tech than a Tesla.

That Kona has a direct ICE version is a convenience which shows the EV/ICE differential.

$17k

Sponsored