Home Back-Up and 80A EVSE Missing at Launch

[Aspesi4]

I scanned the threads on here but it wasn't quite clear to me if we knew definitively that the truck would output AC (utilizing onboard inverter) or DC (requiring separate inverter) home backup solution.

I stumbled across this recent article which quotes the truck's chief engineer Linda Zhang:
"We ended up with something called Intelligent Backup Power. It uses the Lightning's actual charging port on the side of the truck, where you plug it in to charge, to do bidirectional power transfer with the extended range batteries, turning the truck into a mobile backup generator on wheels for an entire home ecosystem paired with a home inverter."

That clears it up for me that truck is outputting DC and will require an external inverter. I have not seen anything indicating the 80A charger will include a transfer switch and/or inverter so assume those will be separate.

Between the inverter + transfer switch + electrician I think we will easily be looking at $10k+ to utilize this feature.

I tend to agree. Unless there are other features like peak shaving implemented, I'm not sure I see the value of installing the inverter system from SunRun. I'd rather install a 30A, 240VAC plug to a manual transfer switch to power loads from the truck. The one plug can output I believe 7.2kW. that's substantial and sufficient in case I ever lose power which is not often.

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[adoublee]

I scanned the threads on here but it wasn't quite clear to me if we knew definitively that the truck would output AC (utilizing onboard inverter) or DC (requiring separate inverter) home backup solution.

I stumbled across this recent article which quotes the truck's chief engineer Linda Zhang:
"We ended up with something called Intelligent Backup Power. It uses the Lightning's actual charging port on the side of the truck, where you plug it in to charge, to do bidirectional power transfer with the extended range batteries, turning the truck into a mobile backup generator on wheels for an entire home ecosystem paired with a home inverter."

That clears it up for me that truck is outputting DC and will require an external inverter. I have not seen anything indicating the 80A charger will include a transfer switch and/or inverter so assume those will be separate.

Between the inverter + transfer switch + electrician I think we will easily be looking at $10k+ to utilize this feature.

That quote suggests that only that only the extended range battery supports bidirectional power transfer, which seems to be untrue. It's the only model that comes with the 80A EVSE for home back-up included, but both batteries support the functionality.

In the same article the author says "Zhang explained that the idea really spawned from the success of the current hybrid F-150 PowerBoost, which can use its onboard generator to power a variety of external devices, including an entire home if the home is equipped with an inverter (as we've explained before)." This makes no sense as the hybrid only sends out AC.

Together, I question the author's understanding of the difference between an inverter and a transfer switch and don't put to much weight on that quote even though it is a data point. We don't otherwise definitely "know" yet.

 

[Snakebitten]

........
This makes no sense as the hybrid only sends out AC.

Together, I question the author's understanding of the difference between an inverter and a transfer switch and don't put to much weight on that quote even though it is a data point. We don't otherwise definitely "know" yet.

Exactly. We make jokes about how the internet is a suspect source for information. But honestly, it's a far more accurate indictment than the humor might imply.

Forums are a powerful way for consumers to share common experiences, but by their nature they can present pure speculation as fact.

I have never had a plug in Hybrid or an EV, but is the typical home charger an electrical cable from an AC Socket to the Socket on the vehicle? Or is there an AC<>DC converter between the house and the vehicle receptacle? I always assumed any converting hardware was in the vehicle itself. But now I'm not sure.

 

[MickeyAO]

Exactly. We make jokes about how the internet is a suspect source for information. But honestly, it's a far more accurate indictment than the humor might imply.

Forums are a powerful way for consumers to share common experiences, but by their nature they can present pure speculation as fact.

I have never had a plug in Hybrid or an EV, but is the typical home charger an electrical cable from an AC Socket to the Socket on the vehicle? Or is there an AC<>DC converter between the house and the vehicle receptacle? I always assumed any converting hardware was in the vehicle itself. But now I'm not sure.

Normally, the vehicle has an On-Board Charger (OBD) that will convert the AC from the house to DC for the battery to charge the vehicle. For the Lighting, this remains the same, but it appears that for Vehicle to House (V2H) it will use the DC connection used for DC Fast Charging (which some incorrectly call Level 3 charging) to power the house which will require an inverter to convert it to AC.

 

[Undisclosed]

.....
In the same article the author says "Zhang explained that the idea really spawned from the success of the current hybrid F-150 PowerBoost, which can use its onboard generator to power a variety of external devices, including an entire home if the home is equipped with an inverter (as we've explained before)." This makes no sense as the hybrid only sends out AC.

Together, I question the author's understanding of the difference between an inverter and a transfer switch and don't put to much weight on that quote even though it is a data point. We don't otherwise definitely "know" yet.

Agree, that statement is certainly incorrect. When I followed the linked article though it only talked about a transfer switch and not an inverter so not sure if this author just made a typo or truly lacks the understanding of the difference. I sure hope the author did not misquote the Ford engineer though (which is what I'm relying on) as that is a whole different level of screwup.

The other antidotes that make me believe Zhang's statement to be accurate is size and pricing.

My limited understanding of transfer switches is that they have to sit between the meter and the load. My home has 400A service and an appropriately sized transfer switch is 2' x 4' which costs around $2k.

Similar story on the inverters. A 10KW inverter is 1.5' x 2', weighs 150lb, and costs $3k.

When I look at that 80A EVSE I just don't see how they could physically fit either of these capabilities in there or have it be economically viable. So, while it is still not definitive, I am starting to mentally prepare myself for it.

 

[Snakebitten]

Normally, the vehicle has an On-Board Charger (OBD) that will convert the AC from the house to DC for the battery to charge the vehicle. For the Lighting, this remains the same, but it appears that for Vehicle to House (V2H) it will use the DC connection used for DC Fast Charging (which some incorrectly call Level 3 charging) to power the house which will require an inverter to convert it to AC.

Thanks for the response.
May I ask where I can find what leaves that impression? (bold portion of your quote)

Obviously all I have seen is the typical commercials and marketing materials that show the Lightning plugged in like it was being charged, which I would have assumed is an AC connection. And then the power outage suddenly "reversed" the purpose for the truck to be plugged in and the house lit up.
Obviously there's more going on than the TV commercial reveals, but I didn't think it would have been anything but AC out of the Lightning.

Note: I'm a Powerboost'r ?
The whole concept of making coffee powered from an F150 is a real part of life already. But it all seems no more complicated than "plugging it in" .

 

[adoublee]

Thanks for the response.
May I ask where I can find what leaves that impression? (bold portion of your quote)

Obviously all I have seen is the typical commercials and marketing materials that show the Lightning plugged in like it was being charged, which I would have assumed is an AC connection. And then the power outage suddenly "reversed" the purpose for the truck to be plugged in and the house lit up.
Obviously there's more going on than the TV commercial reveals, but I didn't think it would have been anything but AC out of the Lightning.

Note: I'm a Powerboost'r ?
The whole concept of making coffee powered from an F150 is a real part of life already. But it all seems no more complicated than "plugging it in" .

The good new for you is that the Lightning will still have the uncomplicated "pro power onboard" outlets you would be able to use in the exact same way as with the hybrid powerboost (just get option of 9.6kW total output instead of 7.2kW).

The complication starts with the function of energizing home wiring through the vehicle charge port. He could explain why it appears this way to him but main data point is probably a leaked photo of a charging setup.

I tend to agree the evidence suggests there will be an implementation that brings DC out of the vehicle and therefore require an offboard inverter, seperate from required offboard grid isolation equipment. I'm basing this off that photo and also a belief that a "bidirectional-at-onboard-charger" might not be feasible to QUICKLY change from a vehicle charging mode to a grid-forming power production mode. Ford is marketing "seamless" back-up which implies rapid if not no-blink. So I think they are offboarding the DC and making for "bidirectional-at-vehicle" to make this most premium implementation UPS-like where no blink is noticed if utility power is lost.

I'm now hoping they have a seperate mid-grade home back-up solution that uses the vehicle equipment to export AC into home wiring through the EVSE (still requiring home isolation device). This might be a stretch but a transition time outage would WAY be worth not having CCS connector and external inverter to buy and install. Or maybe it just took some effort to work out fast transition in the onboard chargers and the photo was just an early R&D workaround.

 

[MickeyAO]

Thanks for the response.
May I ask where I can find what leaves that impression?

My impression is based on the CCS1 handle on the EVSE instead of a J1772...no need to have this in normal charging conditions (in fact, can hamper charging other EVs you may own). There should be a reason why they would go this direction and the most logical reason why it was chosen is the home backup power.

 

[Tony Burgh]

I tend to agree. Unless there are other features like peak shaving implemented, I'm not sure I see the value of installing the inverter system from SunRun. I'd rather install a 30A, 240VAC plug to a manual transfer switch to power loads from the truck. The one plug can output I believe 7.2kW. that's substantial and sufficient in case I ever lose power which is not often.

I have my doubts whether this could work. With a gas powered backup generator you can split the 240v into two 120v circuits with differing amperage on each line. I have done this in a power outage situation. I have a mechanical interlock that prevents generator power from back feeding through the main circuit breaker.
I have a hunch that the two legs of 240 AC from the truck will have to balance. I would love to be wrong about this. If I am then I could use either my generator or the truck (If the call my number) in emergency power outages. The truck would be much quieter than a 10hp B&S engine on my generator.

 

[Pilot2022]

I have my doubts whether this could work. With a gas powered backup generator you can split the 240v into two 120v circuits with differing amperage on each line. I have done this in a power outage situation. I have a mechanical interlock that prevents generator power from back feeding through the main circuit breaker.
I have a hunch that the two legs of 240 AC from the truck will have to balance. I would love to be wrong about this. If I am then I could use either my generator or the truck (If the call my number) in emergency power outages. The truck would be much quieter than a 10hp B&S engine on my generator.

that’s my plan. Use truck to power house at night (mostly fridge/freezer and furnace air handler) and use portable gen during the day (including charging the truck).

 

[Sgt Beavis]

Do any of y’all have experience with SunRun? I’ve given up on using Tesla for my solar install. Just curious if Sunrun is any good.

 

[Aspesi4]

I have my doubts whether this could work. With a gas powered backup generator you can split the 240v into two 120v circuits with differing amperage on each line. I have done this in a power outage situation. I have a mechanical interlock that prevents generator power from back feeding through the main circuit breaker.
I have a hunch that the two legs of 240 AC from the truck will have to balance. I would love to be wrong about this. If I am then I could use either my generator or the truck (If the call my number) in emergency power outages. The truck would be much quieter than a 10hp B&S engine on my generator.

It all depends if the 240VAC plus is a 2 wire (two lines) or 3 wire (two lines and a neutral). I guess I'm not sure what the configuration of that outlet is. Good point.

 

[Aspesi4]

I have my doubts whether this could work. With a gas powered backup generator you can split the 240v into two 120v circuits with differing amperage on each line. I have done this in a power outage situation. I have a mechanical interlock that prevents generator power from back feeding through the main circuit breaker.
I have a hunch that the two legs of 240 AC from the truck will have to balance. I would love to be wrong about this. If I am then I could use either my generator or the truck (If the call my number) in emergency power outages. The truck would be much quieter than a 10hp B&S engine on my generator.

I didn't a little more research on the plug type. All photos of the Lightning Pro Power Onboard show a 4 wire plug similar to what's provided with the F150 Powerboost. The Powerboost has a NEMA L14-30R outlet which is definitely a 240/120VAC receptacle. Considering there's already many 120VAC plugs on the truck which uses a hot and a neutral, it's safe to say the 240VAC receptacle on the truck consists of two hots and a neutral similar to what's in a typical home. You can definitely plug into the receptacle and tie to a manual transfer switch to power your home in the event you lose power. This is a much cheaper approach than utilizing the SunRun integration via an inverter.

 

[Tony Burgh]

I didn't a little more research on the plug type. All photos of the Lightning Pro Power Onboard show a 4 wire plug similar to what's provided with the F150 Powerboost. The Powerboost has a NEMA L14-30R outlet which is definitely a 240/120VAC receptacle. Considering there's already many 120VAC plugs on the truck which uses a hot and a neutral, it's safe to say the 240VAC receptacle on the truck consists of two hots and a neutral similar to what's in a typical home. You can definitely plug into the receptacle and tie to a manual transfer switch to power your home in the event you lose power. This is a much cheaper approach than utilizing the SunRun integration via an inverter.

Excellent.

 

[Fastnf]

I didn't a little more research on the plug type. All photos of the Lightning Pro Power Onboard show a 4 wire plug similar to what's provided with the F150 Powerboost. The Powerboost has a NEMA L14-30R outlet which is definitely a 240/120VAC receptacle. Considering there's already many 120VAC plugs on the truck which uses a hot and a neutral, it's safe to say the 240VAC receptacle on the truck consists of two hots and a neutral similar to what's in a typical home. You can definitely plug into the receptacle and tie to a manual transfer switch to power your home in the event you lose power. This is a much cheaper approach than utilizing the SunRun integration via an inverter.

Did you take into account that the truck may have a neutral-ground bond on it and if you connect it to a house which also has a neutral-ground bond in the main panel you may end up with a ground fault situation in the truck which will stop the power from flowing. This is what happened to TFL when they tried this exact thing with a Powerboost inverter.

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