So... How about them gas prices?

[gtotco]

$20k is a lot for an average American family. Yes, I am serious.

Why is it all these guys with Lightning in their name are so defensive and angry about facts?

Hey, listen man nobody is attacking you guys, I have my name on the list for a lightning too. I just understand how things work and how this rush to ALL EVs is going to be catastrophic to our economy. Lets take it slow, lets work on making both EVs and ICE affordable that is why energy independence and a sound infrastructure is so important before you start forcing people to buy these new expensive vehicles.

Yeah I mean I think the way forward is to continue the improvements on ICE vehicles along with new EV products. I agree EV's are not generally anywhere close to affordable for a lot of people. Products like the new Ford Maverick I think are in a lot of ways much more important where it is an affordable mass market vehicle with great city fuel economy which is how most people drive. After all, even the interstates in most cities are just parking lots.

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[Dadofjax]

If the average 4-door ICE car costs $35,000 and there are multiple 4-door EVs on the market that cost less than $35,000...then EVs are affordable to the average consumer. Now, can you see why your original statement "90% of people can't afford EVs" is blatantly incorrect?

I am not sure why you are so angry about that comment. You little friend Little Redlightning who ran away made a comment about it too, in my very next post I clarified what I meant....

"(puts the price over $20K), so yes 90% of American can't afford, don't want or it is NOT a practical solution for them."

 

[LightningShow]

I am not sure why you are so angry about that comment. You little friend Little Redlightning who ran away made a comment about it too, in my very next post I clarified what I meant....

"(puts the price over $20K), so yes 90% of American can't afford, don't want or it is NOT a practical solution for them."

Why are you mad that Americans can afford EVs? Adding on clarifications doesn't make it correct, it makes it a different claim. Most Americans can afford an EV but they don't buy one for other reasons.

 

[Dadofjax]

I can google too:

https://fox59.com/news/long-lines-form-at-gas-pumps-prices-rise-after-cyberattack-hits-pipeline/

We can google back and forth if you really want to...

Opinion | Imagine Virginia’s traffic jam but with only electric vehicles - The Washington Post

 

[Ronin1973]

I’ve been waiting for $1.99 Gas in California for about 15 years, $3:50 for about 5 years. The new norm around here is $4.00, considered a steal.

I do believe $5 will be the norm around here.

Sucks for you guys out there. I am in Arkansas. My norm has be anywhere from $2.09 to $2.50 forever. It currently sits at $3.49 and will continue to go up during this current turmoil with Russia. I also have no doubt that it will go back down.

 

[beatle]

Lets take it slow, lets work on making both EVs and ICE affordable that is why energy independence and a sound infrastructure is so important before you start forcing people to buy these new expensive vehicles.

Who said people are being forced to buy EVs? Right now demand far outstrips supply and manufacturers can't make enough of what people are voluntarily waving fists of cash to buy. "Aw man, I'm screwed. All my other options except an EV have been taken away and I can't afford one." -Nobody ever.

"Energy independence" also seems to be wrapped in "cheap domestic fossil fuels" and not renewables that are inherently sourced from domestic locations.

 

[Dadofjax]

Why are you mad that Americans can afford EVs? Adding on clarifications doesn't make it correct, it makes it a different claim. Most Americans can afford an EV but they don't buy one for other reasons.

Im not mad about anything, you are the one going off the deep end about a negative comments about EVs.

Again, I have my name on the list for a new Lightning, I also understand it will be end of '23 or '24 before I ever see it though. There is nothing wrong with being critical of some people desperately trying to push ALL EVs before we are ready for them and why I have always maintained we need affordable EVs and ICE vehicles which includes cheaper energy and better infrastructure.

 

[itsdchz]

This is a truly amazing thread.
As an owner/previous owner of:
1- Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle Subaru Crosstrek
2- BMW i3’s with REX
1- Audi Etron
1- F150 Powerboost

I am well versed and aware of the costs, trade-offs etc of EV/PHEV/Hybrid. Unless you know and use/used BEV, you cannot begin to understand things like range anxiety and real world use.

Love to travel over 150 miles? Nothing on the market as pure EV is going too fit your lifestyle or ability to alter your travel to charge… NOTHING… (Maybe 250 is a better number now, but then you start talking over the average $55k EV price).

Asking to alter a lifestyle of travel by personal vehicle in the USA is just simply not going to happen, unless the government gets more involved in subsidy AND this is NOT done by hiking gas prices because of external world conflicts. It is done by investing in infrastructure, battery technologies, and better incentives for better bottom line ratio of ICE vs. BEV.

I am being vague and not detailed in my post, as I simply wanted to respond to all the crazy back and forth. It is truly an, unless you know, you know, otherwise you can hypothesize all you want about knowing the struggle of ICE vs BEV.

For 5 years now, we have experimented, very heavily through a financial investment, to see what means will best suit us and our typical suburban American lifestyle. Right now it is not feasible, but technology has rapidly changed so that soon, maybe the 500+ mile range vehicle will be more prevalent, and will then allow us to be more realistic on what will become the norm. We are on that cusp, as long as pricing doesn’t dictate range, which is currently the deterrence.

 

[FordLightningMan]

Since my response is to many different posts, I'll leave a stream of thoughts.

1) Anyone who thinks an EV is equally bad for the environment as ICE is either insane or easily manipulated.

2) Most people I know can't afford an EV. It won't be until used car prices come down and the second mass wave of EVs are out that average Americans can afford them on the second-hand market. The Leaf is in the ballpark of affordability, but that's really it. Most people don't like having only one option buying a car, plus the average American wants something larger.

3) I went on a 3k+ mile road trip a few weeks ago. I don't think I had a stop that lasted less than 20 minutes, I was in an ICE rental (Kia Sportage). By the time you pump gas, go to the bathroom, and grab a snack/drink; especially with a family in the car, it's almost always a 30 minute ordeal. The average person isn't driving 8 hours straight or stopping for 3 minutes three times on a 10 hour road trip. Are these guys going to the bathroom while pumping gas? If i had my Tesla, the trip would have been nearly identical in drive time, other than the reality you sometimes need to drive a few extra minutes off the highway to find the supercharger.

 

[Detroit87]

I love the Ignore function on this forum!

Because you don't like opposing views. Telling people to buy a Nissan leaf. STFU

 

[Dadofjax]

Who said people are being forced to buy EVs? Right now demand far outstrips supply and manufacturers can't make enough of what people are voluntarily waving fists of cash to buy. "Aw man, I'm screwed. All my other options except an EV have been taken away and I can't afford one." -Nobody ever.

"Energy independence" also seems to be wrapped in "cheap domestic fossil fuels" and not renewables that are inherently sourced from domestic locations.

You do know that is the case with every vehicle right? ICE and EV vehicles are hard to come by right now, I mean used cars are hard to come by. So saying there is a huge demand on 150k Lightnings over the next 3 years when Ford sells almost 900K (2019 last normal year) ICE F150s per year isn't really saying much.

 

[gtotco]

Sucks for you guys out there. I am in Arkansas. My norm has be anywhere from $2.09 to $2.50 forever. It currently sits at $3.49 and will continue to go up during this current turmoil with Russia. I also have no doubt that it will go back down.

Yeah I mean I used to work in energy markets and actually think middle to long term freezing out Russia will bring down prices. Domestic production is way down since pre pandemic because producers have been shy to drill after they get crushed in the 2020 oil crash (remember at one point oil prices traded at negative prices due to excess supply). A lot of firms have been concerned opening wells up again that we will face another glut and wave of losses. Taking Russia out of Western Markets should give them some assurances on supply so hopefully they will ramp up production again and stabilize the market. Also people seem to ignore fact that energy markets are global. Russian oil isn’t disappearing all together it is just going to go into the countries that still trade with them (likely at a discount). That in turn reduces demand from other exporters into those markets and frees it up to go back into western markets. In the short run this creates a lot of volatility as there are existing contracts that need to move around but again middle to long run this stuff sorts itself out. If anything if US onshore comes back we are likely to see more overall oil in global markets which should help prices.
Edit: all this to say yes oil prices will probably go down but also we go through this on a relatively regular basis because they are mostly dictated by an unreliable cartel. Middle to long run I do agree with most people on here that the best solution is to develop a renewable energy market here that isn’t going to go crazy every time some despot does something stupid. Do you really want to put your faith in the mood of Putin or the Saudi Royal Family?

 

[Blainestang]

We don't need to hit a switch and make every vehicle an EV

This is a strawman and the foundation of most of these types of complaints.

The argument creates a false premise (switching to all EVs overnight or very quickly) and then talks about all the problems created by that false premise:

-Everyone can't afford EVs!!! (at today's prices if all cars were EVs tomorrow)
-Infrastructure can't handle it (if 100% of cars were EVs tomorrow)
-They don't work for every possible use case! (if you look at current EVs when EV trucks don't even actually exist yet)

Without the false premise of converting to EV overnight, and assuming an S-curve adoption over the next ~20 years (they will be mainstream QUICKLY, but it will take a long time to cover extreme use cases and near-complete replacement of the US fleet due to the typical 12-year lifespan), the solutions for these issues become far more easily achievable.

EV Affordability: There are already affordable EVs: Leaf, MINI, Bolt, etc. And if $20k, new, is too expensive, then you buy used. The selection of NEW gas vehicles substantially less than $20k is limited, too, and many are disposable junk like Mitsubishi Mirage and similar. Sure, if the changeover was overnight, then there are limited low-end options and some of them are compromised (like cheap gas cars, for that matter), but the options will increase and economies of scale/competition will bring pricing down over the next decade.

Infrastructure can be updated over the next ~20 years. There will be some growing pains, but the issues are greatly exaggerated based on the false premise of nearly overnight conversion to EVs.

EVs not working for every use case: That's why there's an S-curve adoption profile. At first, it's first adopters because they're willing to compromise. Then it's mainstream, which will be relatively soon, as EVs work fine for MANY use cases already. Then adoption slows at the top of the S-curve for people who have no charging access or extreme use cases like long-distance towing. Sure, EVs don't fit those use cases, now, but their capabilities are increasing, and those people will convert at the late end of the S-curve. It's not a big deal except under the false premise of immediate switch to all EVs.

So, yeah, switching over to all EVs tomorrow would bring major issues for buyers, infrastructure, supply, etc., but it's a false premise. Almost no one is suggesting an overnight switch, and I don't think *anyone* here has, so if we talk about a REALISTIC timeline, the issues are much more easily solved, and even some of the current issues are exaggerated, like EV cost and effective time to charge for normal use cases.

 

[beatle]

You do know that is the case with every vehicle right? ICE and EV vehicles are hard to come by right now, I mean used cars are hard to come by. So saying there is a huge demand on 150k Lightnings over the next 3 years when Ford sells almost 900K (2019 last normal year) ICE F150s per year isn't really saying much.

Again, where are people being forced to buy EVs they don't want? Today's EVs are not the compliance vehicles of 20 years ago that nobody wanted. You say "hey, take it slow, don't rush" as if there are loads of EVs sitting around taking up lot space that dealers/manufacturers can't sell, or there are piles of undesirable EVs displacing ICE demand.

 

[ekaddo]

The future is on the way. Good to see manufacturers trying different things:

"Now Porsche was able to drop that number, achieved by a Kia EV6, to 2 hours, 26 minutes and 48 seconds, which was enough to take the vehicle the whole 2,834.5 miles (4,562 km) from in front of the New York City Hall to the Los Angeles City Hall. Wayne Gerdes, with several Guinness World Records under his belt, was the driver and he said" https://insideevs.com/news/563777/porsche-taycan-charging-guinness-record/

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